I call BS.

Right, so, as some of you may know, I got what I believe is the first sub-1 (computer) 5x5 solve ever on Friday. It was a 59.06.

So now I see that since then Robert Yau has had a 55.11. His previous PB was 1:00.18. At this point I'd like to note that the solve doesn't look especially easy/lucky. So here's what we have:
- In a few days, Robert Yau improved his PB by 5.07 seconds (8.4%) to beat the best known time by 3.95 seconds (6.68%). He clearly did this on purpose since it was right after my time. I don't think anyone can set a PB single solve on command.
- This is not the first time that he took the computer 5x5 record back pretty much immediately.
- This guy has never been to a competition and there are no videos of him, in any form, on youtube or strangepuzzle. So all we have is his computer solves.

So what I'm saying is, I'm not so sure he's legitimate. I call BS. It's not just the fact that he beat my record, but the fact that he beat it so quickly AND by so much. Again note that the only record of him is his computer solves and the fact that people have talked to him online. Note that he is first in 3x3, 4x4, and 5x5 on hi-games (all by a significant margin), which tells me that either he's by far the best computer cuber in the world, or that he's cheating somehow. I won't believe it until I see some evidence.

I won't believe what you say till I see evidence.

I totally agree with Michael (qqwref)

I recall an earlier thread about Robert Yau, and this is quite a sudden improvement.

Sub-1 is quite an acheivement, and cheaters deface such acheivements.

Congratulations on the sub-1 as well!

4weeksAndImSub60 said:

I won't believe what you say till I see evidence.

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http://hi-games.net/cube-5x5x5/watch?u=146

I agree on the point that you never saw him, so you are never 100% sure.
But to call him a possible cheater is a bit too far fetched.

Is it really that weird he breaks your record after you did a record? Of course he starts trying extra hard after you break his record, just like I started to do more 5x5 after Dan broke my 5x5 WR.
EDIT: I could also say it's weird you post this just after he breaks your record (which was also amazing)...

His solves look totally not weird. He does a normal method, a pairing method similair to AVG which he explained to me a couple of times (still don't totally understand it )

I've been chatting with Robert for quite a while now and I'm almost 100% sure (can never be fully sure untill you've seen him like I said) he's real. We've been chatting about normal cube things, algs for perms tips for OH etc etc. The only fact is that he's never been to a competition because he's busy. This happened before. Remember Marc van Beest? Though at least Marc got a webcam you'd say, true. But it shows that it's not that weird that a fast cuber can exist without having been to competitions.

All in all I only heared and experienced a lot and good things to prove he IS real than the little fact that you never saw him and therefore doubt his 'realness'.

I asked him and he said that edges on that specific solve were quite lucky because a lot were already paired after centres. He's now checking if he can find a videocamera to make a vid to prove he's real. This is to be continued..

EDIT: could you please also say (next time) what you mean by things like BS? I'm sure not everyone knows. They might think you mean Bart Simpson, Bruce Springsteen, Boy Scouts or whatever

Vulosity said:

http://hi-games.net/cube-5x5x5/watch?u=146

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NO WAY! thats some major hax..... i agree with qqwerf.

what's "to call BS"?

I watched his solve and it does look "normal"...

That's just competition, face it.

There's already been a discussion.

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7575&highlight=Robert+Yau

I've always been suspicious of any one who beats Michael Gottlieb at computer cubes. Why? Because he is already amazing enough. I can't imagine anyone to be better than him.
I was a bit suspicious of Michal Halczuk before he showed up beating the ER of 5x5 at competition.
But I do think Robert Yau is legit. He has been doing the ryanheise simulators since the beginning (before me, and I started maybe 1.4 years ago) and probably does the simulator more than anyone else and focuses more on that than real cubes. I'm also so much better at the simulator than real cubes. I dropped my 4x4 record from ~1:50 to 1:11 in just one day of practice. I think it's also possible for him to make significant improvements too.
I usually always agree with QQ, but not on this one.

Erik said:

But to call him a possible cheater is a bit too far fetched.

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If it is not allowed to say "I think X is cheating", it is impossible to catch cheaters. I would rather that a few people with fast times and no proof have to prove themselves, then that one person with fast cheated times can stay at the top of the record list. If you are going to spend so much time practicing that you can get an unofficial world record in a highly contested event, I don't think it's asking much at all that you prove you're for real.

Erik said:

His solves look totally not weird. He does a normal method, a pairing method similair to AVG which he explained to me a couple of times (still don't totally understand it )

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Yes, he uses a normal method, but that doesn't mean it MUST be real. A while back there was a 5.96 second cheating solve on hi-games that someone made with what appeared to be a computer program to do a Fridrich solve with no delay. Of course Robert has also beaten this...

Erik said:

I've been chatting with Robert for quite a while now and I'm almost 100% sure (can never be fully sure untill you've seen him like I said) he's real. We've been chatting about normal cube things, algs for perms tips for OH etc etc.

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Yes, but remember how Matyas was very fast at normal cube things like 5x5, except that it turned out he was looking under the blindfold? You can't cheat on a 5x5 solve - Matyas really did have a lot of skill. But he was cheating on one thing, and I'm just suggesting that maybe Robert is the same (that is, cheating on computer cubes only). I hope not, but I need to make sure.

Pedro said:

what's "to call BS"?

I watched his solve and it does look "normal"...

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It means to say that you think something is fake, or at least that you're suspicious of it.

Vulosity said:

http://hi-games.net/cube-5x5x5/watch?u=146

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Looking at that, I would say it could be improved even more. During the edges there were some clear hesitations and looking around going on.

Odin said:

Vulosity said:

http://hi-games.net/cube-5x5x5/watch?u=146

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NO WAY! thats some major hax..... i agree with qqwerf.

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Great comment...

qqwref said:

If it is not allowed to say "I think X is cheating", it is impossible to catch cheaters. I would rather that a few people with fast times and no proof have to prove themselves, then that one person with fast cheated times can stay at the top of the record list. If you are going to spend so much time practicing that you can get an unofficial world record in a highly contested event, I don't think it's asking much at all that you prove you're for real.

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Are we on the 'take-discussion-on-every-point-you-say' tour? Whatever you like. I never said it's not allowed, I just say it's a bit far fetched to shout 'possible cheater' when someone is just faster and you don't know him.
And I talked to him, he's trying to make some material. Tomorrow he'll be trying to send a vid of a 1:15 (it was the only thing he could get in 5 min) and he'll be trying to get a bit more in the weekend.

Erik said:

His solves look totally not weird. He does a normal method, a pairing method similair to AVG which he explained to me a couple of times (still don't totally understand it )

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Yes, he uses a normal method, but that doesn't mean it MUST be real. A while back there was a 5.96 second cheating solve on hi-games that someone made with what appeared to be a computer program to do a Fridrich solve with no delay. Of course Robert has also beaten this...

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Why don't you doubt my computer solves then? You never had proof I am even capable of solving a cube on the computer. Just the fact that he's faster makes that you demand his proof and not mine. He could just refuse to make vids to annoy you, but luckily he's actually a nice guy and tries to make some videos. Nobody likes it when people are suddenly pointing fingers at you.

Erik said:

I've been chatting with Robert for quite a while now and I'm almost 100% sure (can never be fully sure untill you've seen him like I said) he's real. We've been chatting about normal cube things, algs for perms tips for OH etc etc.

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Yes, but remember how Matyas was very fast at normal cube things like 5x5, except that it turned out he was looking under the blindfold? You can't cheat on a 5x5 solve - Matyas really did have a lot of skill. But he was cheating on one thing, and I'm just suggesting that maybe Robert is the same (that is, cheating on computer cubes only). I hope not, but I need to make sure.

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So you are saying Robert might be legit on 5x5 computer solves but cheats at 2x2 OH solves at home? This argument doesn't say anything besides the fact that it's possible that people cheat. And for *** sake, I thought we agreed on not saying his name in combination with cheating and blindfolded.

All in all. Mostly I agree with you on discussions and might even support you a lot of the time. But this time I don't see your point at all in calling BS on Robert at all. Your argumentation has twisted from: 'innocent untill proven otherwise' (which is mainly what you argue from, or at least it looks to me like that) to 'possibly guilty when not proven'. To me it just looks like a childish act as a reaction of losing a record, sorry to say.
You could've just asked Robert himself, or asked me (or anyone in contact with him) to make a vid, which he's going to now, to prove he's real.
Now people are already seriously thinking he's a cheater which is not something he deserved.

Why don't you guys have a "live" average of 5 competition?
Winner takes the glory
Loser becomes the loser (but still second in the world)

qqwref said:

which tells me that either he's by far the best computer cuber in the world, or that he's cheating somehow.

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I think you have your answer right there.

How can you guys be so blind?!
Have you not looked at his profile on hi-games?
http://hi-games.net/profile/146

He flat out said, "I am not a cheater"

PROOF!

Well for the sake of discussion, let's say he did cheat. How?

I'd like to see the program behind it if there is one . It'd be a pretty sweet program.

I don't know how Heise's simulator is implemented, but i guess the applet sends some kind of replay to the server. He just could've made the replay by hand.

Erik said:

Your argumentation has twisted from: 'innocent untill proven otherwise' (which is mainly what you argue from, or at least it looks to me like that) to 'possibly guilty when not proven'. To me it just looks like a childish act as a reaction of losing a record, sorry to say.
You could've just asked Robert himself, or asked me (or anyone in contact with him) to make a vid, which he's going to now, to prove he's real.
Now people are already seriously thinking he's a cheater which is not something he deserved.

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I just find it hard to believe that, as soon as I beat the best time he's ever gotten, he suddenly destroys it. If he can beat his PB by 5 seconds, why was it so slow in the first place? Besides I was actually wondering about it before, when he got a 1:01 and then 1:00, and the biggest reason is simply that I've never seen him do a solve so I can't know. For you or Michal or someone like that it is "okay, I know this guy, I trust him" - or at the very least "this guy has gone to a competition, so he really is good at bigcubes" - but Robert is a big ? and I don't know or trust him. He could be anyone. Has anyone on speedsolving met him in real life, ever?

Incidentally it wasn't my intention to ruin his reputation or anything, I just don't believe the times and I want to see some basic proof. If someone is convinced he is fake just because his time is fast they are an idiot.

PatrickJameson said:

I'd like to see the program behind it if there is one . It'd be a pretty sweet program.

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I would also like to see the program behind "Haydee Pasha". But I doubt we will ever see it.

tim said:

I don't know how Heise's simulator is implemented, but i guess the applet sends some kind of replay to the server. He just could've made the replay by hand.

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This is an interesting idea. If you knew the data format and you could intercept the replay, you could make a replay that had the same moves, but with no pauses (or much fewer pauses). This might be easier than making a solver program.