• Welcome to the Speedsolving.com, home of the web's largest puzzle community!
    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to join discussions and access our other features.

    Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community of 40,000+ people from around the world today!

    If you are already a member, simply login to hide this message and begin participating in the community!

ZZ-CT vs ZZ-C++

ProStar

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2019
Messages
4,811
Location
An uncolonized sector of the planet Mars
WCA
2020MAHO01
But CT has way less algs then ZBLL

Full ZZ-CT is quite complicated and still has ~200ish algs, while being slower than ZZ-A (~500 algs). Even without full ZBLL, something like EOCross-F2L-COLL-EPLL is usually about as fast as ZZ-CT while being simpler and far less algs, as well as being a stepping stone towards further learning.

I'd recommend checking out Andrew Nathenson (ColorfulPockets)'s videos on ZZ-CT; he's a ZZ user who used ZZ-CT for a bit but eventually switched back to ZZ-A (although without full ZBLL).
 

Cubinginatree

Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2022
Messages
68
Location
With the trees
WCA
2022KITT01
Full ZZ-CT is quite complicated and still has ~200ish algs, while being slower than ZZ-A (~500 algs). Even without full ZBLL, something like EOCross-F2L-COLL-EPLL is usually about as fast as ZZ-CT while being simpler and far less algs, as well as being a stepping stone towards further learning.

I'd recommend checking out Andrew Nathenson (ColorfulPockets)'s videos on ZZ-CT; he's a ZZ user who used ZZ-CT for a bit but eventually switched back to ZZ-A (although without full ZBLL).
Sorry I thought you meant: " Learn ZBLL not CT"
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
1,457
Location
In the park feeding Ducks
Easy, but not good. Just pick a set and dive in.
I don't think there's any problem with COLL if you use it OS style. Personally, I don't really want to dedicate the time to learning 3x3 HPLL sequences, an easy alternative is to take the COLL's that I know, that are not bad, and if I can recognize it instantly, use the COLL. This is also incredibly useful in doing things like avoiding a diag swap without wasting time on COLL, lefty wide sexy sledge isn't any slower than doing it righty, and you can avoid a U2 AUF by doing an alternative sequence. This of course is not the only example, but it's a good one.

Of course COLL>>EPLL isn't as good as HPLL, and a lot of times it's not as good as OCLL>>PLL. A moron could see that. There's no reason for pushing that limited statement around. Give the full picture, be more inclusive. COLL is not objectively bad; it has its purposes and it has its flaws. Learn how to work with it. HPLL is not objectively the optimal path for everyone. Believe it or not, some people are fine with knowing only part of COLL. Not everyone has the dedication to learning HPLL, or even a set of it. Other people might prioritize other things in life other than plastic puzzles, or maybe they have other hobbies they have to spend time on too, or maybe they have mental health problems/disorders that make it impossible to learn, or at least, so challenging it's a waste of time.

COLL is a great place to start, you don't have to learn all the cases, just learn the good ones and it provides a great foundation for future development. You may be surprised to hear this but a lot of HPLLs are variations of one another! This means that if you learn a COLL, it could likely transition well to other cases. When you see the similarities, it will make the other cases almost effortless (this is very true with EO Tripod). This may also come as a shock, but 100% of COLLs are HPLLs! This means that you can learn certain patterns and recognize HPLLs and on fly using block recognition. This won't work for all cases, some are a bit tougher to recognize, but it's still a useful skill to have. And guess what, since those COLLs are actually sneaky HPLLs, that means you have less sequences to learn later if you decide to pursue HPLL later, imagine!

It's almost like COLL isn't as bad as you say 🤔
 
Last edited:

Swagrid

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2018
Messages
443
Location
Downtown Swagistan
YouTube
Visit Channel
I don't think there's any problem with OS COLL. Personally, I don't really want to dedicate the time to learning 3x3 HPLL sequences, an easy alternative is to take the COLL's that I know, that are not bad, and if I can recognize it instantly, use the COLL. This is also incredibly useful in doing things like avoiding a diag swap without wasting time on COLL, lefty wide sexy sledge isn't any slower than doing it righty, and you can avoid a U2 AUF by doing an alternative sequence. This of course is not the only example, but it's a good one.

Of course COLL>>EPLL isn't as good as ZBLL, and a lot of times it's not as good as OCLL>>PLL. A moron could see that. There's no reason for pushing that limited statement around. Give the full picture, be more inclusive. COLL is not objectively bad; it has its purposes and it has its flaws. Learn how to work with it. HPLL is not objectively the optimal path for everyone. Believe it or not, some people are fine with knowing only part of COLL. Not everyone has the dedication to learning HPLL, or even a set of it. Other people might prioritize other things in life other than plastic puzzles, or maybe they have other hobbies they have to spend time on too, or maybe they have mental health problems/disorders that make it impossible to learn, or at least, so challenging it's a waste of time.

COLL is a great place to start, you don't have to learn all the cases, just learn the good ones and it provides a great foundation for future development. You may be surprised to hear this but a lot of HPLLs are variations of one another! This means that if you learn a COLL, it could likely transition well to other cases. When you see the similarities, it will make the other cases almost effortless (this is very true with EO Tripod). This may also come as a shock, but 100% of COLLs are HPLLs! This means that you can learn certain patterns and recognize HPLLs and on fly using block recognition. This won't work for all cases, some are a bit tougher to recognize, but it's still a useful skill to have. And guess what, since those COLLs are actually sneaky HPLLs, that means you have less sequences to learn later if you decide to pursue HPLL later, imagine!

It's almost like COLL isn't as bad as you say 🤔
This has to be a ****ing copypasta there's no way
 

OreKehStrah

Member
Joined
May 24, 2019
Messages
1,016
YouTube
Visit Channel
I don't think there's any problem with OS COLL. Personally, I don't really want to dedicate the time to learning 3x3 HPLL sequences, an easy alternative is to take the COLL's that I know, that are not bad, and if I can recognize it instantly, use the COLL. This is also incredibly useful in doing things like avoiding a diag swap without wasting time on COLL, lefty wide sexy sledge isn't any slower than doing it righty, and you can avoid a U2 AUF by doing an alternative sequence. This of course is not the only example, but it's a good one.

Of course COLL>>EPLL isn't as good as ZBLL, and a lot of times it's not as good as OCLL>>PLL. A moron could see that. There's no reason for pushing that limited statement around. Give the full picture, be more inclusive. COLL is not objectively bad; it has its purposes and it has its flaws. Learn how to work with it. HPLL is not objectively the optimal path for everyone. Believe it or not, some people are fine with knowing only part of COLL. Not everyone has the dedication to learning HPLL, or even a set of it. Other people might prioritize other things in life other than plastic puzzles, or maybe they have other hobbies they have to spend time on too, or maybe they have mental health problems/disorders that make it impossible to learn, or at least, so challenging it's a waste of time.

COLL is a great place to start, you don't have to learn all the cases, just learn the good ones and it provides a great foundation for future development. You may be surprised to hear this but a lot of HPLLs are variations of one another! This means that if you learn a COLL, it could likely transition well to other cases. When you see the similarities, it will make the other cases almost effortless (this is very true with EO Tripod). This may also come as a shock, but 100% of COLLs are HPLLs! This means that you can learn certain patterns and recognize HPLLs and on fly using block recognition. This won't work for all cases, some are a bit tougher to recognize, but it's still a useful skill to have. And guess what, since those COLLs are actually sneaky HPLLs, that means you have less sequences to learn later if you decide to pursue HPLL later, imagine!

It's almost like COLL isn't as bad as you say 🤔
Imagine needing CP to recognize a ZBLL. Couldn’t be me.
Real though, if you aren’t gonna learn ZBLL why use COLL when it isn’t even better than OCLL PLL? Mfs will really force Z perms over adj PLL 💀
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
1,457
Location
In the park feeding Ducks
This has to be a ****ing copypasta there's no way
I've only used copypasta one in my life so maybe that's some sort of reference that went over my head, but if you don't mind me asking, what in the world are you talking about? If you aren't familiar, HPLL is a more accurate name for ZBLL. I can't imagine that's what the confusion is about. If it's about me throwing together a couple of lazy paragraphs, I did that because I'm tired of seeing the two extremes that either COLL is trash or that COLL is OP. Both are objectively wrong and so I stated my reasoning for disagreeing.

Imagine needing CP to recognize a ZBLL. Couldn’t be me.
Real though, if you aren’t gonna learn ZBLL why use COLL when it isn’t even better than OCLL PLL? Mfs will really force Z perms over adj PLL 💀
Maybe you didn't comprehend what my post said. I reworded the first sentence so if you were reading it wrong the whole time because of my sloppy post it should be fixed now. What I was saying is that you would only use COLL if the sequence is good and recognizing it doesn't add any extra time. This is true for a lot of L cases as well as T, U, and debatably H (I use H COLL the majority of the time, it however isn't necessarily optimal).

Maybe you find Z-perms inconsistent in solves but I personally would much rather get a Z-perm than E or F perm. (Yes I am aware Ore has ZWB, solves and non-solves are two different things)
 

ruffleduck

Member
Joined
May 9, 2021
Messages
833
Location
Chess
YouTube
Visit Channel
I don't think there's any problem with COLL if you use it OS style. Personally, I don't really want to dedicate the time to learning 3x3 HPLL sequences, an easy alternative is to take the COLL's that I know, that are not bad, and if I can recognize it instantly, use the COLL. This is also incredibly useful in doing things like avoiding a diag swap without wasting time on COLL, lefty wide sexy sledge isn't any slower than doing it righty, and you can avoid a U2 AUF by doing an alternative sequence. This of course is not the only example, but it's a good one.

Of course COLL>>EPLL isn't as good as HPLL, and a lot of times it's not as good as OCLL>>PLL. A moron could see that. There's no reason for pushing that limited statement around. Give the full picture, be more inclusive. COLL is not objectively bad; it has its purposes and it has its flaws. Learn how to work with it. HPLL is not objectively the optimal path for everyone. Believe it or not, some people are fine with knowing only part of COLL. Not everyone has the dedication to learning HPLL, or even a set of it. Other people might prioritize other things in life other than plastic puzzles, or maybe they have other hobbies they have to spend time on too, or maybe they have mental health problems/disorders that make it impossible to learn, or at least, so challenging it's a waste of time.

COLL is a great place to start, you don't have to learn all the cases, just learn the good ones and it provides a great foundation for future development. You may be surprised to hear this but a lot of HPLLs are variations of one another! This means that if you learn a COLL, it could likely transition well to other cases. When you see the similarities, it will make the other cases almost effortless (this is very true with EO Tripod). This may also come as a shock, but 100% of COLLs are HPLLs! This means that you can learn certain patterns and recognize HPLLs and on fly using block recognition. This won't work for all cases, some are a bit tougher to recognize, but it's still a useful skill to have. And guess what, since those COLLs are actually sneaky HPLLs, that means you have less sequences to learn later if you decide to pursue HPLL later, imagine!

It's almost like COLL isn't as bad as you say 🤔
I'm sorry--what?
 
Top