• Welcome to the Speedsolving.com, home of the web's largest puzzle community!
    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to join discussions and access our other features.

    Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community of 35,000+ people from around the world today!

    If you are already a member, simply login to hide this message and begin participating in the community!

[Help Thread] ZBLL discussion

GenTheThief

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
1,718
Location
Illinois, U.S.A.
WCA
2016GEEN01
YouTube
Visit Channel
why is this discussion on the top of the forum lol
The thread was started in 2012. The first page has posts from 2012 because that's how linear posting works. You'll notice that we're on the 25th page right now (this might be slightly different depending on how many messages displayed per page).
This thread is at the top of the New Posts because it was the thread where someone posted most recently. You'll notice, however, that the discussion has moved on in the 8 years and we were talking about which sets we preferred.

Looking at your join date, I can see that you're pretty new. In future, please try to look at the date of posts or threads that you reply to. Don't answer questions from 2014 because chances are the person doesn't go onto the forum anymore.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2020
Messages
266
Location
On a long train journey, Smashin' PBs one a stop
Also, I've another question. There is a thing against S and AS. The common reason is that their OLLs are pretty fast so OLL+PLL is better than the ZBLLs. Suppose one gets a V perm on N perm after OLL, then the ZBLL will be faster and more efficient right?(forgive me for being a noob)
 

PetrusQuber

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
2,861
Location
my house, cubing.
YouTube
Visit Channel
Also, I've another question. There is a thing against S and AS. The common reason is that their OLLs are pretty fast so OLL+PLL is better than the ZBLLs. Suppose one gets a V perm on N perm after OLL, then the ZBLL will be faster and more efficient right?(forgive me for being a noob)
The ZBLLs are faster than almost all combos anyway, it’s just an average. People don’t generally learn S and AS COLL for sure, but on average the ZBLLs are faster so people learn them. They’ll probably make the least difference though.
And yeah it’ll be more efficient
 

tx789

Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
1,961
Location
New Zealand
WCA
2010HUNT02
YouTube
Visit Channel
Also, I've another question. There is a thing against S and AS. The common reason is that their OLLs are pretty fast so OLL+PLL is better than the ZBLLs. Suppose one gets a V perm on N perm after OLL, then the ZBLL will be faster and more efficient right?(forgive me for being a noob)
Yep that is true. Also V and N perms aren't that much slower. Just learn good algs and fingertricks.


Sune and antisune is widely considered worst and not worth it but some learn.


Start with the T or U set and move on to L after learning T and U. Then decide to go for Pi and H or the sunes if you atucally want to know full ZBLL rather than a good chunk.
 

GenTheThief

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
1,718
Location
Illinois, U.S.A.
WCA
2016GEEN01
YouTube
Visit Channel
Yep that is true. Also V and N perms aren't that much slower. Just learn good algs and fingertricks.
Very true. I think for beginners they are notably slower, but IMO getting those to 2 or 1.5 isn't hard if you have the right algs and solid fingertricks.

Sune and antisune is widely considered worst and not worth it but some learn.
There is a notable difference between "not worth it" and "worst". Most people have 0 experience* with Sune or Antisune ZBLL, but for some reason they give advice all the time. In my experience, and what I've heard from other people who have learned more Sune ZBLL than I have, is that it is a good set, but it is not worth it for a couple reasons.
OCLL prediction from LS with CP recog during sune execution (~.4) can lead to a 1.5 second LL pretty easily, assuming you have your PLLs sub 1. This is why people who have learned Sune ZBLL don't recommend learning it, not because it's a bad set, but because it's not worth it since the alternatives as already fast enough.

(and IMO H is the worst set, although there might be some bias present because it's my worst set as my recognition is still crap)

Start with the T or U set and move on to L after learning T and U. Then decide to go for Pi and H or the sunes if you atucally want to know full ZBLL rather than a good chunk.
Yep, TUL is a good group to learn/start with/stick with. Not too many bad cases/algs and pretty well developed.


*As a disclaimer, I don't know full Sune yet. I do know about 35% of Sune/Anti Sune ZBLL. I have selected all my algs though, so I have tried every case and every alg, but I haven't memorized them or the recognition for most of the cases yet. They're good algs.
 

xyzzy

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
2,055
Most people have 0 experience* with Sune or Antisune ZBLL, but for some reason they give advice all the time. In my experience, and what I've heard from other people who have learned more Sune ZBLL than I have, is that it is a good set, but it is not worth it for a couple reasons.
Absolutely this. I know full 2-gen/diag ZBLL at least (admittedly, I haven't bothered with speed-optimal algs), and the S/AS cases don't seem especially bad compared to the rest. Even if the median S/AS case is worse than the median ZBLL case, that's easily made up for with the extreme outliers on the good end like the Sunes/Antisunes/Niklases.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2020
Messages
266
Location
On a long train journey, Smashin' PBs one a stop
Very true. I think for beginners they are notably slower, but IMO getting those to 2 or 1.5 isn't hard if you have the right algs and solid fingertricks
Yes it is easy to get V down to 2 or even 1.5. One may have to struggle a bit to get the Ns down. As of now, my V is almost Sub 1 and the Ns are around the 1.9 mark. So maybe S and AS can make a difference?
 

Tao Yu

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Messages
1,138
Location
Ireland
WCA
2012YUTA01
YouTube
Visit Channel
Yes it is easy to get V down to 2 or even 1.5. One may have to struggle a bit to get the Ns down. As of now, my V is almost Sub 1 and the Ns are around the 1.9 mark. So maybe S and AS can make a difference?
You should try these newer N perms and see if you like them. PLL is part of ZBLL after all, and any ZBLL user should have fast PLL algs.

I guess if you're thinking really long term, yeah S and AS ZBLLs could help. Practically speaking though, it takes a long time to learn enough ZBLLs that you get them in solves and are able to recognize and execute them significantly faster than OLL/PLL. If you find that there are PLLs that slow your solves down, your first step should be to simply get faster at those PLLs. ZBLL comes after.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2020
Messages
266
Location
On a long train journey, Smashin' PBs one a stop
You should try these newer N perms and see if you like them. PLL is part of ZBLL after all, and any ZBLL user should have fast PLL algs.
Whoa I think I can get these down to 1.5
I guess if you're thinking really long term, yeah S and AS ZBLLs could help. Practically speaking though, it takes a long time to learn enough ZBLLs that you get them in solves and are able to recognize and execute them significantly faster than OLL/PLL. If you find that there are PLLs that slow your solves down, your first step should be to simply get faster at those PLLs. ZBLL comes after.
Yes there are quite a few PLLs that I have to change algs or executions. *thinking*. For eg. I use lefty Aa for Ab and lefty Rb for Ra because I was lazy when I was learning PLL
(Correct me if I'm wrong because I usually confuse the A perms lol)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 30, 2020
Messages
266
Location
On a long train journey, Smashin' PBs one a stop
I wanna start learning ZBLL as soon as I finish my ~10 remaining COLLs and I've landed into a problem

I don't know where to start lol

Please suggest an algsheet for learning ZBLL
I learnt my first 21 2GLLs over the past week. The Sune Combo(the cases that can be solved with a combo of the Sune, antisune and their F/B mirrors) ZBLLs. ZBLL count: 42/494 including PLL
Whoops I forgot:
All the cases I learnt were T U and L cases
 
Last edited:
Top