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[Help Thread] ZBLL discussion

Aerma

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Sorry to bump a thread that's been inactive for the past year, but I don't know where else to put this.
How long of a break should one take in between learning ZBLL sets? I'm nearly done with Pi, and I don't know how long I should give myself to practice before moving on. My goal is to learn ZBLL as slowly as I need to be able to not need to spend long hours practising it once I'm finished, and I've been learning Pi since late October.
 

Tao Yu

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Sorry to bump a thread that's been inactive for the past year, but I don't know where else to put this.
How long of a break should one take in between learning ZBLL sets? I'm nearly done with Pi, and I don't know how long I should give myself to practice before moving on. My goal is to learn ZBLL as slowly as I need to be able to not need to spend long hours practising it once I'm finished, and I've been learning Pi since late October.
I don't think there's one answer to this as I've seen people learn ZBLL in many vastly different ways. I think the best way to decide is to just train yourself on them and analyze your performance carefully. Pay attention to things like your rate of forgetting algs, the quality of your recall (i.e. do you remember instantly or does it take some time?) and just how likely you feel you are to forget certain algs. If you do this, I think you'll come up with better much advice to what anybody else can give you.
 

NevEr_QeyX

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I need a good list of ergonomic ZBLLs. I am not sure where to go to find the right algs. Any thoughts? I would prefer something I could easily print for times when I don't want to use a computer.
 

PetrusQuber

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Tao Yu

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OK thanks! are the Algdb algs good? I know Tao Yu has a trainer, does that have good algs?
I think the algs are okay, but there are definitely a lot of algs for which better alternatives are known. No source is perfect, but I think the Juju sheet probably has the best algs overall.

I want to use ZZ-b, and I'm wondering if It's worth learning COLL first. Some of the algs would be useless.
You could probably just learn COLL algs that are also ZZLL algs.

I think a lot of people treat learning COLL first as a sort of hard and fast rule, but I think if you look at the reasons behind the rule, some of them might not apply to everyone (the following applies to ZZLL and ZBLL):
  • COLL teaches you CP recognition, which is essential for recognizing most ZBLL cases. This is probably the best reason, but I don't see why this means that you absolutely need to know CP recognition for every case before you start ZBLL. For example, I think it would be perfectly fine to learn only T COLLs, learn full T ZBLL after that, and then learn U COLL, and so on. I also suspect that recognizing COLL first for sune cases might not be optimal - I think methods where you partially recognize the COLL and infer the case from other cues could be promising (perhaps more so with ZZLL since you have more prior information about the case). If you intend to recognize sunes like this, it's not necessary to learn sune COLL.
  • Learning COLL gives you a fast method to fall back on while you don't know full ZBLL. Personally I never cared about this one because I knew from the start I was going to finish full ZBLL, so any fallback method would soon be replaced anyway.
So what I'm saying is that you should only follow advice if the underlying reasons make sense to you. For example, whether or not you want COLL as a fallback method is going to depend on how determined you are to learn full ZZ-b, and how badly you want to avoid learning "useless" algs.
 

N's-cvt

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After seeing the results of my ZZ-Blah thread I saw that most people claimed that Pi and H are not the best ZBLL sets so then the question then becomes what is the best OLL's to preform ZBLL's on?
 

GenTheThief

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Pi has good recognition and really good algs though they tend to be a little longer. No one has ever explained to me why it is an inferior set.
T and U are good but they also have some pretty iffy cases.
L is just annoying, but its mostly composed of TU inverses so the algs are fine.
H is just bad Pi algs with easy COLL recognition. Some good cases but not much.
I don't have much experience with S/As, but they seem pretty good to me. I understand that sune/pll is pretty fast, but I think that zbll is ultimately faster. Leaving them for last makes the most sense though.
 

Tao Yu

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OPINION

T, U, L and 2GLL mostly have easy recognition and some of the best algs. This may make them the most worthwhile sets as this means they take relatively less effort to learn and provide more a speed advantage over regular OLL/PLL.

Pi and H have difficult recognition and some of the worst algs. It can take more work to make these sets worthwhile in solves, although it is certainly possible.

Sune recognition difficulty is alright, much easier than Pi and H, but noticeably harder than T/U/L. It can take a lot of work to make these sets worthwhile in solves because OLL/PLL is very competitive in this case. However, they can be made worthwhile with a lot of practice.

Some of my views here might be due to me having bad algs or recognition methods. In particular, I think a lot of the algs I use for Pi could be improved, and that may change my views on it. In any case you should try and form your own opinions on the different sets by trying the algs yourself - only use what others say as a informal guide.
 
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