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[Help Thread] ZBLL discussion

Aerma

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Here are all the ones I know of

Full:
Chris Tran, Jabari Nuruddin, Anthony Brooks, Egide Hirwa, Simon Kalhofer, Morley Davidson, Callum Hales-Jepp, Zaid Khalifa, Micki Kanaiya Harning, Christine Brychcy, Knut Skaug Haraldsen, Tao Yu.

No sunes/antisunes:
Jayden McNeill, Michal Pleskowicz?, Zachary White, Joel Ulin, Daniel Egdal, and probably many more.

I'm sure I'm missing a lot. I know that some of these people have forgotten algs as well.
Oh wow, that's more people than I thought, impressive!
Hopefully I'll be one of the next ;)
 

Aerma

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Could somebody post a PDF file of Anthony Brooks' ZBLL algs? I would look it up myself and just download it but my internet's being really weird right now and won't let me access the site...
 

Aerma

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Just out of curiosity, how fast do you all think ZBLL can be learned? One month? Two weeks? One week? Assuming you spend nearly all your time on it and got only the necessary amount of sleep, what's the human limit?
Also, I'll probably be picking back up ZBLL. I learned the T set before quitting since I was switching to Roux, but now that I've been back at CFOP I may try to restart. Of course, I've already forgotten every T set alg. This time I'm starting with the H set since it's smaller, and I'm really going to just take my time this time around, I don't feel like rushing it.
 
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Thom S.

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Just out of curiosity, how fast do you all think ZBLL can be learned? One month? Two weeks? One week? Assuming you spend nearly all your time on it and got only the necessary amount of sleep, what's the human limit?
Also, I'll probably be picking back up ZBLL. I learned the T set before quitting since I was switching to Roux, but now that I've been back at CFOP I may try to restart. Of course, I've already forgotten every T set alg. This time I'm starting with the H set since it's smaller, and I'm really going to just take my time this time around, I don't feel like rushing it.
Start with T, then go to H. You are already familiar with Recognition and Execution of these Cases(you want to learn mostly the same ones) and it will be plenty fast.

If I'm not outdated, the fastest anyone has learned ZBLL is Chris Tran in one Month but more is possible.
If we take Corens attempt to learn full OLL(he knew some cases so lets go with 45) and assume your head can keep up, we'd be at two weeks.
Let's say a top Mnemotist learns move-optimal ZBLL for FMC(as learning Algorithms for FMC is faster then for Speedsolving) I really think one week or one and a half is possible but we have to see if someone comes up with a universal method to learn especially Cubing Algorithms fast(breaking down, writing down or painting the case won't work for everyone
 

2180161

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So, kind of a small bump, but I seem to be having issues with the 2GLL for L. Does anyone have any tips? Algs in general aren't hard for me, I learned all of T in about 45 minutes, but I just can't seem to get L down.
 

Aerma

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So, kind of a small bump, but I seem to be having issues with the 2GLL for L. Does anyone have any tips? Algs in general aren't hard for me, I learned all of T in about 45 minutes, but I just can't seem to get L down.
Maybe take a look at this page. Scroll down to the L section.
It tells you how to recognize each case and also gives tips about how to learn the alg for some of them, like "Sune, U, back sune" for example.
Good luck!

This is a little bit off topic but would you consider making a video about how to memorize algorithms that quickly? I'm sure a bunch of people would find it useful!
 

Tao Yu

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So, kind of a small bump, but I seem to be having issues with the 2GLL for L. Does anyone have any tips? Algs in general aren't hard for me, I learned all of T in about 45 minutes, but I just can't seem to get L down.
Your alg learning ability is the honestly most confusing thing ever for me.

Here's some ideas I can think of off the top of my head:
  • Train the algs a lot more on my trainer. This was my default solution whenever I ran into problems, and it has always worked for me in the end.
  • Figure out which algs are causing you problems (especially the ones you are mixing up) and paste them into the "use custom algset" box in my trainer.
  • For recognition, try twisting the corners in your head and then using EPLL recognition to figure out the case.
 
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How do you auf after zbll? Do you just look ahead and react at the end of the alg, or do you memorize where a certain color will end up at the end of each alg so you already know what the auf will be while you're doing the alg? I've started learning the T set and I've been memorizing where the headlights will end up so I can start the alg, recognize what color the headlights are, then as I'm solving, I think where the headlights will end up and know what the auf will be by the time I finish the alg. Just wanna know if that is a bad strategy before I start learning a lot more.
 

GenTheThief

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How do you auf after zbll? Do you just look ahead and react at the end of the alg, or do you memorize where a certain color will end up at the end of each alg so you already know what the auf will be while you're doing the alg? I've started learning the T set and I've been memorizing where the headlights will end up so I can start the alg, recognize what color the headlights are, then as I'm solving, I think where the headlights will end up and know what the auf will be by the time I finish the alg. Just wanna know if that is a bad strategy before I start learning a lot more.
That seems to be the best way to go about it. Basically like for auf on eg for 2x2.
I know the auf for some cases, but mostly I just react to each case as it comes up because I didn't learn the aufs when I learned the algs/cases.
 

Lapis

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So I've been attempting to learn full ZBLL but I also want to be able to recognize a case from any angle. For T, U, and L, flipping the corners in my head and determining what PLL it would be works fine, but I found that for Pi, H, and certain angles of S and AS, this isn't the best method. In attempting to determine another method to recognize a case, I think have stumbled upon a slight variant of Tran-Style Recognition. Rather than using a single corner's colors and then finding the corresponding edges, I can use one color each from two corners. For example, consider this Pi Case: R' U2 R2 U R2 U R2 U2 R'. I use the top color of the two corners on the bottom. I assign the bottom right color a 1, and the bottom left corner a 2. The edge corresponding to 1 is in the north position, and the edge corresponding to 2 is in the south position. No other ZBLL case with the same corner orientation has this, so I can uniquely identify this case! If you're having trouble understanding what I'm saying, watch this video:
. What's nice about this variant is that you can essentially recognize from any angle, since the corners chosen always have their top color visible. Something similar can be applied to H, S, and AS. I'm not sure if anyone has thought of this before, but I just wanted to bring notice to this for anyone wishing to learn ZBLL recognition from any angle.
 

xyzzy

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Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't get how this is a true two-sided recognition system. With Tran-style recog (find two edges with two specific colours), you can't immediately determine the edge colours on the two sides that aren't visible unless you happen to look ahead to what they are during the last slot.

No other ZBLL case with the same corner orientation has this, so I can uniquely identify this case!
(also this is technically not true)
 

Lapis

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Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't get how this is a true two-sided recognition system. With Tran-style recog (find two edges with two specific colours), you can't immediately determine the edge colours on the two sides that aren't visible unless you happen to look ahead to what they are during the last slot.


(also this is technically not true)
Chris mentions that his method recognition can eventually lead to two-sided recognition in the video, since you essentially have to look at blocks to determine cases where the edges are not visible. Also when I said that that case was unique, I meant for that corner permutation. The case you mentioned has the same corner orientation, but not the same corner permutation. I should have clarified this.
 

xyzzy

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Chris mentions that his method recognition can eventually lead to two-sided recognition in the video, since you essentially have to look at blocks to determine cases where the edges are not visible.
You can say this about any recog system. Tran-style recog by itself definitely falls under the "four-sided" category.
 

Lapis

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You can say this about any recog system. Tran-style recog by itself definitely falls under the "four-sided" category.
Fair enough. I just think this version is more adapted to recognize from any angle. I’m not saying it’s the best, but it’s something to think about. I’ll definitely try it out and see where it leads.
 
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So I'm trying to recognize cases just by what makes them stand out from the others. I haven't looked into any recognition methods and am not really interested in having some set way I recognize each case, would rather just look and see what makes that one unique. But I am running into the problem of some don't have anything that really stand out from others. Take a T set, I've learned 3 so far and in 2 of the 3 there have been 4 cases with two pairs, 4 cases with one pair, then 4 cases with no pairs. The way I've been recognizing the ones with no pairs is to first, recognize that there are no pairs, then look at one or two things, that aren't very obvious to see, that separate them from eachother. In the end, these ones are much slower to recognize and I was wondering if there is something I'm not thinking of in order to have an easier time recognizing a case with no distinct pattern.
 

Lapis

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So I'm trying to recognize cases just by what makes them stand out from the others. I haven't looked into any recognition methods and am not really interested in having some set way I recognize each case, would rather just look and see what makes that one unique. But I am running into the problem of some don't have anything that really stand out from others. Take a T set, I've learned 3 so far and in 2 of the 3 there have been 4 cases with two pairs, 4 cases with one pair, then 4 cases with no pairs. The way I've been recognizing the ones with no pairs is to first, recognize that there are no pairs, then look at one or two things, that aren't very obvious to see, that separate them from eachother. In the end, these ones are much slower to recognize and I was wondering if there is something I'm not thinking of in order to have an easier time recognizing a case with no distinct pattern.
If you’re going to go that route, then consider these two cases:
1. R U R’ U R U2 R’ U R U2 R’ U’ R U’ R’ U
2. R’ U’ R U’ R’ U2 R U’ R’ U2 R U R’ U R U
As you can see they both have big 1x1x3 bars. You distinguish these 2 cases by what sticker is next to these bars. For the first case, the sticker on RU is adjacent to the sticker on FUR. For the second case the sticker is opposite. If you think this is a poor method of determining the case, then try Tran style recognition, or Baum Harris style. If you want to recognize from any angle, just flip the misoriented corners in your head and determine what PLL you would get. This works great for the T, U, and L sets, but has some drawbacks with Pi, H, S, and AS.
 
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If you’re going to go that route, then consider these two cases:
1. R U R’ U R U2 R’ U R U2 R’ U’ R U’ R’ U
2. R’ U’ R U’ R’ U2 R U’ R’ U2 R U R’ U R U
As you can see they both have big 1x1x3 bars. You distinguish these 2 cases by what sticker is next to these bars. For the first case, the sticker on RU is adjacent to the sticker on FUR. For the second case the sticker is opposite. If you think this is a poor method of determining the case, then try Tran style recognition, or Baum Harris style. If you want to recognize from any angle, just flip the misoriented corners in your head and determine what PLL you would get. This works great for the T, U, and L sets, but has some drawbacks with Pi, H, S, and AS.
Those cases are actually really easy for me to recognize since its quick to recognize the 1x1x3 then I just see which side of the bar has two opposite colors next to eachother. These however:

1. R' U' R F U' R' U' R U F' U R' U R U'
2. R U R' U R U R' U2 R U' R2 D' R U' R' D R
3. F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U R' U2 R U R' U2 R U' R' U
4. F R U' R' U R U R' U R U' R' F' U2

None of them have any unique, easy to recognize patterns, except for 1 and 2 have a 1x1x2 but I would normally recognize from the opposite side so they aren't in my view, plus other cases have bars there too so it isn't unique. So for these four I first have to recognize that there are no unique bars, then for 1 and 2, I can either recognize the opposite colors on the left and right side, or look at the back to see which side the bar is on. For 3 I see it as a Z perm, but that's still hard to see when my brain is looking for bars and opposites next to eachother. For 4 I see nothing unique about it, so the only way I recognize that is by recognizing that it isn't 1, 2, or 3. Am I making this harder than it should be? I would really like there to be something recognizable instead of having to recognize that it isn't something else.
 

Lapis

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Those cases are actually really easy for me to recognize since its quick to recognize the 1x1x3 then I just see which side of the bar has two opposite colors next to eachother. These however:

1. R' U' R F U' R' U' R U F' U R' U R U'
2. R U R' U R U R' U2 R U' R2 D' R U' R' D R
3. F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U R' U2 R U R' U2 R U' R' U
4. F R U' R' U R U R' U R U' R' F' U2

None of them have any unique, easy to recognize patterns, except for 1 and 2 have a 1x1x2 but I would normally recognize from the opposite side so they aren't in my view, plus other cases have bars there too so it isn't unique. So for these four I first have to recognize that there are no unique bars, then for 1 and 2, I can either recognize the opposite colors on the left and right side, or look at the back to see which side the bar is on. For 3 I see it as a Z perm, but that's still hard to see when my brain is looking for bars and opposites next to eachother. For 4 I see nothing unique about it, so the only way I recognize that is by recognizing that it isn't 1, 2, or 3. Am I making this harder than it should be? I would really like there to be something recognizable instead of having to recognize that it isn't something else.
Using Baum Harris style, first recognize the COLL case and then look at the two edges right next to the UFR corner. For the first case, you would identify it as AO, or adjacent opposite. That is because the FU sticker is an adjacent color compared to the one on FUR, and the RU sticker is an opposite color compared to RUF. You can do something similar for the other cases. There should be a tutorial somewhere about it. Using Tran Style, look at the colors of the UFR corner, and assign each one an arbitrary number. For example, the color on UFR is 1 and the color on RUF is 2. Now look for the edges corresponding to the numbers. For the third case, they are both right in front of you. Specifically, this is the case where 1 is in the east position, and 2 is in the south position. Look up “ a short explanation on how I used to recognize ZBLL” on youtube for more info on this. Last, if you know 2-sided PLL recognition, then just determine what PLL you would get if the corner was oriented correctly. For the second case, I know this an adjacent swap, specifically with headlights in the back. Thus, the sticker on RUB must match the one on RU. This is an Rb Perm and so I perform the corresponding algorithm.
 

GenTheThief

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So I can recognize cases, but I'm lazy so I use block recognition which means I can usually only recognize after I auf two or three times.

For 1 and 2, with the twisted corners in the back, I see that there are no blocks, auf to check which side the bar is on, and then do my alg: R' U' R L U2' R' U R U2 L' U' R' U R. Mirror across S for 2.

For 3, I see that there are no blocks but subconciously that there is a pair of each color (RU and FUR- LU and FUL- UF, LUF, and RUF), auf to check for blocks and see that FU, UFR and UFL are all the same.
For 4, I just see that there are no blocks, auf and see that UF, UFR and UFL are opposites.
 
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