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[Help Thread] ZBLL discussion

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Malkom

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Should I not learn the Sune ZBLLS and just use COLL? To me the Sune ZBLLS seem like they aren't worth it because there is almost 200 algs, and it takes a second to recognize the edges and stuff, for me COLL would seem faster, considering that there is only 12 Sune/Anti-Sune cases. Tell me what you guys think! :)
At your speed you shouldn't learn any ZBLLs at all, COLL at most.
 

xyzzy

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The S/AS COLLs are almost useless because the 2-gen algs are just too fast, and the extra time spent on recognising CP and using a slower orientation alg doesn't always make up for the marginally faster PLL. Assuming you get your recog to be almost instant, using the S/AS COLLs probably saves you less than one move on average.

On the other hand, the S/AS ZBLLs do provide a significant reduction in move count (~6 moves) when they show up, although they're obviously a lot harder to recognise than just PLL and there're 144 algs to learn. (Also, to date, my only sub-10 solve is with an S ZBLL, which is probably some kind of argument for learning S/AS ZBLLs.)

At your speed you shouldn't learn any ZBLLs at all, COLL at most.
I'm way slower and I know like 200 ZBLL algs (or 190-ish cases, because multiple algs for the same case), which probably means I'm doing it wrong lol.
 
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Rpotts

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Use OLL/PLL for Sune cases unless you're very comfortable with lightning fast ZBLL recognition. Sune->T perm or whatever is so fast you'll be hard-pressed to beat it with a ZBLL unless you recognize and recall like a god.
 

Aerma

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I just recently started learning ZBLL (minus sune/antisune since the OCLL's are so fast already and you can do them from any angle really quickly) and I was just wondering this:
Would it be better to learn it slower but make sure you know algs you're learning really well before moving on to the next one or would it be better to learn them faster but not be as good with recognition? I'm planning on going the first way so I'll be less likely to just give up.
 

GenTheThief

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I just recently started learning ZBLL (minus sune/antisune since the OCLL's are so fast already and you can do them from any angle really quickly) and I was just wondering this:
Would it be better to learn it slower but make sure you know algs you're learning really well before moving on to the next one or would it be better to learn them faster but not be as good with recognition? I'm planning on going the first way so I'll be less likely to just give up.
I've done it the super slow way, casually learning a set every few weeks when I can. I don't remember when I exactly started, but I'm at ~230, though I have forgotten some since I haven't been practicing 3x3 much lately.

I would suggest that you learn all of quickly them in 3ish months, one CP set a week with some buffer, and then drill them in the following months to solidify them. Once you know them all you can keep drilling them, but when you know only a few that you know well, there isn't much point in drilling them.
 

Aerma

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Is learning the Sune/Antisune ZBLLs worth it, considering how fast the regular OLL algs already are? If so, where could I find the best algs for them? They aren't listed on the list from Anthony Brooks/Jabari, which is where I'm getting my algs.
 

xyzzy

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Is learning the Sune/Antisune ZBLLs worth it, considering how fast the regular OLL algs already are?
Anthony's mentioned that S/AS isn't worth it unless you're at a super high level. Jabari has also said something similar.

On the flip side, I think @Tao Yu has mentioned somewhere that learning S/AS is worth it, although I can't remember if he's actually said that or where he said it. (Might've been a YouTube or reddit comment?)

Anyway, Jabari's list (which, confusingly, isn't the same as the Anthony/Jabari list) has the S and AS algs.
 

Pyjam

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You could learn some Sune/AS cases with a square on U (easy to recognize) :
• Niklas
• Anti-Niklas : (x) U2' R2 D' R' U2 R D R' U2 R' U2' (x') and (x') U2' R2' D R U2 R' D' R U2 R U2' (x)
• 3 corners twisted : (F' r U R' U' r' F) (U2' R' D' R U2 R' D R2) and (R2' D' R U2 R' D R U2) (F' r U R U' r' F)
 

Tao Yu

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On the flip side, I think @Tao Yu has mentioned somewhere that learning S/AS is worth it, although I can't remember if he's actually said that or where he said it. (Might've been a YouTube or reddit comment?)
I've said that I think S/AS cases are faster than OLL/PLL in the long run. I also may have said that I found them worth learning just so I could say I finished learning full ZBLL.

I do, however agree with Anthony and Jabari. It's very hard to get them faster than OLL/PLL

My advice would be to make the decision once you are finished everything else. There's no need to commit to it so early on. Finish T, U, L, Pi and H and then make a decision based on:

- How tired/burned out you are
- How badly you want to be able to say you know full ZBLL
- How easy/hard it is for you to learn 144 algs at this stage
- How much you like learning algs at this stage
- How badly you need to review your other sets.
- How much time you have

As you can see, it's not purely about speed, and you will have a better idea of many of these things once you are done all the other sets.
 

GenTheThief

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You could learn some Sune/AS cases with a square on U (easy to recognize) :
• Niklas
• Anti-Niklas : (x) U2' R2 D' R' U2 R D R' U2 R' U2' (x') and (x') U2' R2' D R U2 R' D' R U2 R U2' (x)
• 3 corners twisted : (F' r U R' U' r' F) (U2' R' D' R U2 R' D R2) and (R2' D' R U2 R' D R U2) (F' r U R U' r' F)
Also
  • Anti-recognition Niklas: L R U' R' U R L' U R' U2 R U2' R' and L' R' U R U' R' L U' R U2' R' U2 R
 

Aerma

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I've said that I think S/AS cases are faster than OLL/PLL in the long run. I also may have said that I found them worth learning just so I could say I finished learning full ZBLL...
Thank you for the advice! Another couple of questions, how often do you forget cases, if at all, and how can you minimize it?
 

Tao Yu

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Thank you for the advice! Another couple of questions, how often do you forget cases, if at all, and how can you minimize it?
They are very solid in my head right now, but I used to forget cases pretty often when I was learning. The main thing for me was to train the cases a lot until they stuck. It's not elegant or anything, but it worked for me.

Basically the way I learned ZBLL was, I would open up https://tao-yu.github.io/Alg-Trainer/ (scroll down for help), and then choose a set of 12 algs to study. I would start training myself on the algs immediately (I never used any alg sheets) using the simulator cube, and I would continue to train myself until I could get around 20 in a row correctly. The next day, I'd sometimes have forgotten some of that set, so I'd retrain myself on them until I could get 20 in a row again. If I felt they were solid at this point, I would move on to the next set. If not, I would continue to train myself on the set until I felt I was.

So basically, I just drilled them into my head using brute force. The virtual cube in my trainer helped me drill the cases a lot more efficiently because it allowed me to focus on one thing and one thing only - I didn't need to switch my brain to other tasks such as scrambling, solving and looking up algs in Jabari's alg sheet.

Personally, I found most of the T, U and L sets stuck pretty well after training them for one day, and then doing some review the next day. The other sets would often take longer than this since I found them harder.

Anyway I'm not sure if this method of training is for everyone, but it worked very well for me. Probably the best way to find out what works for you is to just learn a couple sets, and see how you fare with them. By the time you've finished one or two sets of 72 algs, you'll probably have found a pace that works for you and that minimizes your rate of forgetting algs.
 

Aerma

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They are very solid in my head right now, but I used to forget cases pretty often when I was learning. The main thing for me was to train the cases a lot until they stuck. It's not elegant or anything, but it worked for me.

Basically the way I learned ZBLL was, I would open up https://tao-yu.github.io/Alg-Trainer/ (scroll down for help), and then choose a set of 12 algs to study. I would start training myself on the algs immediately (I never used any alg sheets) using the simulator cube, and I would continue to train myself until I could get around 20 in a row correctly. The next day, I'd sometimes have forgotten some of that set, so I'd retrain myself on them until I could get 20 in a row again. If I felt they were solid at this point, I would move on to the next set. If not, I would continue to train myself on the set until I felt I was.

So basically, I just drilled them into my head using brute force. The virtual cube in my trainer helped me drill the cases a lot more efficiently because it allowed me to focus on one thing and one thing only - I didn't need to switch my brain to other tasks such as scrambling, solving and looking up algs in Jabari's alg sheet.

Personally, I found most of the T, U and L sets stuck pretty well after training them for one day, and then doing some review the next day. The other sets would often take longer than this since I found them harder.

Anyway I'm not sure if this method of training is for everyone, but it worked very well for me. Probably the best way to find out what works for you is to just learn a couple sets, and see how you fare with them. By the time you've finished one or two sets of 72 algs, you'll probably have found a pace that works for you and that minimizes your rate of forgetting algs.
Thanks, but isn't solving on a virtual cube with your keyboard less practical since you're getting used to muscle memory on the keys rather than turning the physical cube?
 

Tao Yu

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Thanks, but isn't solving on a virtual cube with your keyboard less practical since you're getting used to muscle memory on the keys rather than turning the physical cube?
Yeah that's the downside for sure, however I found it pretty easy to just drill them into muscle memory afterwards. If you watch my most recent youtube video, you'll see my execution is already pretty decent, one month after I finished.

I personally find fingertricking algs the easiest part of learning algs by far, so I think an advantage of doing it this way is that I can focus on the hard things first: recognition and associating algs to cases. Then I can do the easy stuff later.

As I've said, this is not for everyone. It worked very well for me, but it might not work well for you.
 

Tao Yu

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What is the current full list of people who know full ZBLL? Wat about ZBLL minus S/AS?
Here are all the ones I know of

Full:
Chris Tran, Jabari Nuruddin, Anthony Brooks, Egide Hirwa, Simon Kalhofer, Morley Davidson, Callum Hales-Jepp, Zaid Khalifa, Micki Kanaiya Harning, Christine Brychcy, Knut Skaug Haraldsen, Tao Yu.

No sunes/antisunes:
Jayden McNeill, Michal Pleskowicz?, Zachary White, Joel Ulin, Daniel Egdal, and probably many more.

I'm sure I'm missing a lot. I know that some of these people have forgotten algs as well.
 
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