• Welcome to the Speedsolving.com, home of the web's largest puzzle community!
    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to join discussions and access our other features.

    Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community of 40,000+ people from around the world today!

    If you are already a member, simply login to hide this message and begin participating in the community!

"Why not produce it like this in the first place?"

Nilsibert

Member
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
422
Location
Switzerland
WCA
2014FREY01
YouTube
Visit Channel
This topic has bugged me for quite some time, and here's what I'm talking about:

We've seen a lot of mods being invented that are made to make certain cubes better. Most of the time, as far as I know, they consist of sanding down sharp edges on pieces.
I'm sure most of you know the 48 point edge mod for the zhanchi, the corner mod for the V5 and Konsta/florian mods for shengshou cubes, just to name a few well-known examples.
What I'm always wondering about is why don't they produce the cubes like their modded versions in the first place?
For example, the shengshou 4x4 is in its 5th version right now. The konsta/florian mods have been around for some time now. It's pretty much undeniable that if done right, the mods improve the cube by a lot. Why wouldn't shengshou adopt those mods for newer versions? I'd guess that they have heard about the mods. Also the Dayan/Mf8 4x4 has the pieces rounded off in a dayan fashion, and they surely know about this cube. So if they're gonna change the molds for new versions anyway, why wouldn't they produce the pieces rounded off in the first place?
The same goes for the V5. The corner bumps serve no purpose at all, why are they there? I think changing the mold now isn't worth it for the company, but why include those bumps in the first place? I know that V-cubes don't target speedsolvers, but surely even casual cubers prefer a better turning cube.

In some cases I guess you could say a company doesn't want to make the "perfect cube" right away, so they can make improved versions, essentially selling more.
But I don't think that's the case with shengshou, or is it? It doesn't seem like they casually make bigger and bigger dayan-style holes in their newer versions, it seems like they don't even consider it.


Anyway, let me know what you think, I'm interested in your thought on this.
 

DAoliHVAR

Member
Joined
May 28, 2013
Messages
161
I just can't seem to figure out what you are saying :/

Sincerely, noob

he means that the answer to your question,is simply the cost of making all that stuff,and /thread means that this is now a useless thread because its been answered
 

qqwref

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
7,834
Location
a <script> tag near you
WCA
2006GOTT01
YouTube
Visit Channel
I agree. Stuff like rounding off corners, having big rounded spaces at the intersections of 4 pieces, etc. would all be great if applied to new puzzles. And I feel like whenever we are all changing the shape of a puzzle's pieces in a specific way to improve it, that change could easily be applied to the molds as well. Of course remaking the molds for a puzzle costs money, but I think some of it is that puzzle designers just don't follow speedcubing mods and don't know about the ways their puzzles need to be improved. That's really the only thing that makes sense when they keep producing new designs and are still far behind.

To be honest, I don't think the "complex shapes" of a modded cube are significantly harder to produce than a normal cube. We've already seen plenty of odd shapes in puzzles like the Zhanchi, Taiyan, Shangren, etc. and most mods really just reduce certain parts of pieces by a few millimeters.
 

Nilsibert

Member
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
422
Location
Switzerland
WCA
2014FREY01
YouTube
Visit Channel
As in, it's too expensive to make it pre modded due to the complex shapes required
I mean just look at the Mo Yu. So so so budget.

That makes sense, I see. But the SS 4x4 corners have a design which seems as complex or even more complex as if they were completely rounded. Of course that's just the corners.
Also with the V5, isn't the bumpy corner design more complex than just making it round? I have no experience in the field, it's just assumptions from my side.

Of course remaking the molds for a puzzle costs money

Sure it does, but they change the mold for some pieces anyway when making a new version. Why not once change it to get the holes and generally rounded off edged (konstamod) and stick with it? Wouldn't they make more money in the long run if they were without competition because they have the best cubes?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Coolster01

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2011
Messages
2,342
Location
Near Deetroit, Michigan, United States
WCA
2011SBAH01
YouTube
Visit Channel
Yeah, my brother always says modding cubes is stupid because if a cube needed mods, it would come modded. We need a good cuber and designer in one person who speaks english so we can talk to him. It would be awesome if somebody who knows what a good cube looks like would step up and make a magnificent 4x4. Anybody who can make non-shapeways puzzles here on the forum?
 

wontolla

Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
300
WCA
2011GRAJ01
YouTube
Visit Channel
I guess companies don't sell "modded" cubes because their main market is not speedcubers. And sometimes, those mods provoque pops in normal people's hands.
 

pipkiksass

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,081
YouTube
Visit Channel
Since most mods are getting rid of plastic, wouldn't the companies actually save money by making the cube "pre-modded" since the cube would use slightly less plastic?

I don't think it's the cost of the plastic, but the cost of casting more complex moulds.

I guess companies don't sell "modded" cubes because their main market is not speedcubers. And sometimes, those mods provoque pops in normal people's hands.

I think Dayan and ShengShou (and Funs, MoYu...) cater pretty much exclusively to speedcubers. 'Normal people' wouldn't be shopping around for good brands of cubes, and would just buy Rubik's. They don't deliberately make the cubes bad, they could probably make an awesome cube that sold for 30USD, but it would be only marginally better than a modded Zhanchi that you can pick up for $10. :/
 

ryanj92

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2011
Messages
1,575
Location
Sheffield, UK
WCA
2012JONE03
YouTube
Visit Channel
I think it's better for them to send them out with a bit of extra bulk on them and let us take bits off them rather than minimising the plastic usage and ending up with a product with too little plastic. Especially seeing as people sand surfaces to remove bumps and stuff, whether this needs to be done or not is independent of how much plastic there is there :)
 

cyoubx

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
666
YouTube
Visit Channel
I suppose I'm somewhat qualified to try to answer this question.

It really just boils down to cost; not the cost of materials as much as the cost of production. Filleted surfaces are simply harder to machine and therefore cost more money. It's much easier to leave certain parts sharp.

"Pre-modding" a cube is silly since some people wouldn't like the "mod" anyway. If everyone loved the modded version, we'd all be using modded cubes right now. I, for one, haven't used a modded 3x3 as a main in quite some time which suggests that modded cubes aren't inherently needed. Therefore, the rational choice is to drive production costs down and those who want a modded cube can do so themselves. There's no real reason to "pre-mod" a cube since that won't satisfy everyone anyway.
 

CarlBrannen

Member
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
367
Location
Pullman, WA
WCA
2013BRAN01
I think some of the companies do make cubes for speedsolving, otherwise they wouldn't have the fine cubes now available.

But having worked as an engineer I can tell you that behind the scenes, it's not so easy to bring a product out. Getting the cubes to be ultra fast is an objective, but there are a bunch of other objectives that are far more important. The pieces have to fit together. As we saw with the PanShi, they have to not break too easily. That had to have been a disaster for Dayan, companies can't afford returns and customer complaints. These puzzles may seem simple but there's a whole lot of work goes into manufacturing them.

As far as the difficulty of making modded pieces, I don't think there's any real problem. Dayan does a pretty good job by mostly recessing the mold parting lines and they do pretty well with making the joints between pieces reasonably flush. The only internal mod I've done to my ZhanChis is to sand the flat internal surfaces flat. This makes it a lot faster (for me).

And some of the mods aren't all good. I don't like the Florian mod of the 5x5 because it makes the thing more clicky and I prefer a smooth cube. Eventually I'm going to buy a bunch of Shengshou 5x5s and get into moding them to see if I can make a 5x5 that I actually like. What bothers me is that I prefer turning my SS7x7 to the SS 5x5, so what I really want is a 5x5 built from a 7x7 internals (with the 3x3 pieces all held in by the core). Wonder if I couldd make that mod, that is, cut a mini 7x7 down to a 5x5...
 

stensgaard

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
72
ShengShou is doing this with the 3x3x3 Aurora!
so let's just hope they do the same with the 4x4x4! :)
 
Top