# What's the difference between LBL and Ortega?

#### Aerith

##### Member
this is for 2x2 but whats the difference between those methods??

#### hamfaceman

##### Member
In LBL the first layer you make it has to be correctly permuted, but in Ortega it doesn't.

#### Aerith

##### Member
In LBL the first layer you make it has to be correctly permuted, but in Ortega it doesn't.
is ortega better?

#### LeeryLangers

##### Member
If you see an easy layer, go for LBL.
If it will take a lot of moves, go for Ortega.
That's why learning both is better.

#### mark49152

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
If you see an easy layer, go for LBL.
If it will take a lot of moves, go for Ortega.
That's why learning both is better.
I disagree, unless you know CLL. The PLLs are the longest of the PBLs.

#### qqwref

##### Member
I would consider both Ortega and CLL to be improvements of LBL. Ortega saves moves by letting you build a face instead of a layer, and by permuting both layers at once instead of just one (it's a few more algs, but on average the algs are shorter). CLL saves moves by doing the orientation and permutation of the last layer at the same time.

...and then EG is an improvement over both Ortega and CLL

#### Aerith

##### Member
I know but they use the same algs and what's the point of making the first layer for lbl and Ortega you do the same algs for lbl???

#### PurpleBanana

##### Member
I know but they use the same algs and what's the point of making the first layer for lbl and Ortega you do the same algs for lbl???
LBL doesn't use PBL algs because the first face is always permuted. Ortega is basically not having to permute the first face in exchange for learning a couple more algorithms. It's a pretty good deal.

#### Piotr Grochowski

##### Member
LBL doesn't use PBL algs because the first face is always permuted. Ortega is basically not having to permute the first face in exchange for learning a couple more algorithms. It's a pretty good deal.
I agree. One day I learned PBL just for fun and I was surprised that OLL together with it is full Ortega already.

#### Dancing Jules

##### Member
If you see an easy layer, go for LBL.
If it will take a lot of moves, go for Ortega.
That's why learning both is better.
Actually, if a permuted and a non-permuted 1st layer are equally easy, the non-permuted is better for Ortega, because PBL algs (that aren't PLL-algs) are a lot nicer than PLL algs.

##### Member
Yes, when I saw that 2 of the shortest PBL algs are for cases with the D layer needing diagonal corners permuted, I try for those, figuring that making 2 extra turns at the beginning can prevent needing the longest algs at the end of the solve.

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#### Reed Merrill

##### Member
I think it's probably a little bit easier to be colour neutral with Ortega because for your face you don't have to recognize where corners actually have to go. As far as PBL and CN goes I'm not sure though.

#### Dancing Jules

##### Member
As far as PBL and CN goes I'm not sure though.
Similarly to PLL on 3x3 (where you look for headlights and blocks) in PBL each layer has one of three states: solved, bar or no bar. Combinations of these give you 6 states, one of which is solved and two are PLLs.