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Table abuse in OH solving and algorithms.

Lazy Einstein

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This is the saddest thread post I'll ever make. Sadge
Since the OH event is and will forever be OH+table, this had me looking over OH algs documents and thinking about OH practice.

Firstly, I am going to present, likely the most obvious idea, and that is MES layer algs that are superior to RUF/RUD/etc algs in OH solving with table abuse.
Examples algs
- H perm: M2' U' M2' U2' M2' U' M2'
- Comm stuff like this OLL/ELL: R U' R' S' R U R' S
- Dot case: S' R U R' S U' R' F R F'

Next point: Use of the table for difficult moves.
I will force examples to make my meaning obvious. This may not be an optimal way to solve OH using table abuse but that doesn't matter. This example is just to show the potential effectiveness. Don't @ me, bro! Jk, bro...Jk.

Example scramble: R' L2 F U D' F' R' U L U2 D2 F2 D2 L2 F2 R2 U' B2 U' F2

Video showing solve:

Left-hand OH CFOP User
- x' z - when you pick up, keep the cube very close to the table
- D R' - then do a x y' movement to the table. Dropping the cube to regrip the F/B face which should be Green/Blue
- Only tilt the cube 35-45° keeping the R/D edge of the cube on the table then, using table abuse stability, double flick U'u'
- Lift cube off table and do R2 with cube on the angle still then
- z rotate drop the cube the remaining angle and
- regrip doing another z rotation to angle, do an R2
-
then complete the z and y rotation by drop rotating on the table
- then pick up and F2L
You should have an XCross, on the D layer, with XCross pair in BL slot.

- Xcross solution is: D R' x y' u' U' R2 z R2 z y

I just got bored so I don't want to add anything more to this. But yeah, it could be disgustingly advantageous to practice OH taking heavy advantage of table abuse.
You can:
- Decrease fumbling during rotations
- Aid awkward moves by stabilizing one's grip on the cube against the table.
- Use faster algs that would be impossible in legitimate OH solves sans object interference.

I submit to the community that the days of practicing hard, Antoine Cantin style, and being actually good along with having a respectable technique in OH solving, can't compete with table abuse OH because of the advantages one gets from table abuse.
 
Last edited:

kubesolver

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This gives me the idea that to finally ban table abuse from OH we need someone to get absolutely insanely awfully good in table abuse to the point where the table is as good of a tool as a second hand.

It reminds me of aerial shots in table football. They used to be legal and a fun way to play a risky trick-shot until one day someone became too good.
and now there is a rule that "A player may not perform any shot that causes the ball to lob or volley over the opponent’s rods"
 

Lazy Einstein

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This gives me the idea that to finally ban table abuse from OH we need someone to get absolutely insanely awfully good in table abuse to the point where the table is as good of a tool as a second hand.

It reminds me of aerial shots in table football. They used to be legal and a fun way to play a risky trick-shot until one day someone became too good.
and now there is a rule that "A player may not perform any shot that causes the ball to lob or volley over the opponent’s rods"
That's basically it.
I found that table abuse was explicitly not allowed via the regulations back around end ~2017.
At that time, there was a random guideline that roughly stated "... table didn't count as interference if not used to operate the puzzle(Move a face by pushing it with the table) ..." and was used to justify table abuse as well as not having to adhere to the regulations specifically.

Since then, the regulations were amended to state:
  • C1b4) During the solve, the competitor may hold the puzzle against the surface to help operate the puzzle (see Regulation 7f1d).
  • 7f1d) Surface: The flat surface on which the Stackmat has been placed. The mat is considered a part of the surface. The timer is not considered a part of the surface.
So, these amendments directly allow the use of the table to assist with OH solving.
It would be crazy to not meticulously investigate how one may use the table to increase the speed and accuracy of one's solving while also aiding with risk and deficiencies(awkward rotation/turns, poor grip/dexterity, etc.)

I am very confident that Max Park would not have achieved the WR, as quickly as he did, if table abuse was not allowed as per the previous regulations.

Given this and the regulation amendments, I believe that if one hopes to be competitive with the WR holder, one needs to start incorporating any clever techniques, finger tricks, etc being used by the WR holder and other top OH solvers.

Either, we'll have to use table abuse to be competitive in OH solving or the WCA will be forced to revisit the regulations regarding table abuse.
 

Lazy Einstein

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What would we do about OH records if we were to ban table abuse? Records wouldn’t catch up with the current records for a long time. Would we just have to clear out all of the OH results?
Same thing as OLD MBLD, Magics, and Feet. They stay on your WCA profile if you competed in them before the change.

Table Abuse is extremely likely to be around as long as OH is an event now. Not only will Records be a point of keeping it but so will using Roux.

That's why I am investigating the idea of embracing table abuse and using it to maximize one's OH times.
 
Last edited:

xyzzy

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Probably of some interest: a comparison of some of Max's and Kian's OH solves I did a few years ago:
Also, have you seen Max Park's CFOP solves???? The cube is touching the table over 20% of the time.

So, I grabbed the video linked above of one of Max's ao5 along with this 10.62 official average by Kian to compare them. I specifically didn't want to choose their WR averages because those are inherently distorted towards lucky solves and I wanted something a bit more representative. Also, no unofficial solves because those are extremely distorted. Just before you scroll down any further, make a rough guess of the proportions of the solves where Max and Kian had the cube touching the table.

frame rate: 30000/1001
solve 1:
start of solve: frame 345
end of solve: frame 629
total frames: 285
cube touches surface:
[345 347] [357 360] [365 376] [382 384] [391 409] [431 439] [485 493] [529 551] [561 566] [582 592]
99 frames

solve 2:
start of solve: frame 1047
end of solve: frame 1373
total frames: 327
cube touches surface:
[1047 1050] [1056 1065] [1067 1081] [1092 1129] [1160 1174] [1241 1241] [1289 1289] [1294 1304] [1319 1325] [1335 1354] [1372 1372]
123 frames

solve 3:
start of solve: frame 1907
end of solve: frame 2207
total frames: 301
cube touches surface:
[1907 1910] [1933 1946] [1950 1953] [1959 1988] [1999 2006] [2034 2042] [2045 2048] [2071 2079] [2104 2111] [2116 2126] [2149 2156] [2160 2176] [2182 2192]
137 frames

solve 4:
start of solve: frame 2649
end of solve: frame 2967
total frames: 319
cube touches surface:
[2649 2650] [2653 2660] [2692 2704] [2721 2726] [2751 2759] [2798 2804] [2836 2846] [2877 2879] [2891 2894] [2923 2931]
72 frames

solve 5:
start of solve: frame 3418
end of solve: frame 3710
total frames: 293
cube touches surface:
[3418 3418] [3427 3456] [3461 3469] [3478 3488] [3502 3507] [3522 3527] [3541 3548] [3559 3569] [3633 3640] [3652 3663] [3695 3696] [3699 3710]
116 frames

total frames of all solves: 1525
total frames of all solves with cube touching surface: 547
percentage: 547/1525 ~ 36%
frame rate: 30000/1001
solve 1:
start of solve: frame 27
end of solve: frame 389
total frames: 363
cube touches surface:
[27 30] [37 47] [56 66] [173 178] [205 216] [235 240] [305 389]
135 frames

solve 2:
start of solve: frame 525
end of solve: frame 832
total frames: 308
cube touches surface:
[525 527] [549 551] [623 635] [649 658] [743 832]
119 frames

solve 3:
start of solve: frame 966
end of solve: frame 1271
total frames: 306
cube touches surface:
[1142 1152] [1158 1271]
125 frames

solve 4:
start of solve: frame 1430
end of solve: frame 1722
total frames: 293
cube touches surface:
[1474 1482] [1529 1534] [1575 1579] [1587 1590] [1600 1601] [1638 1722]
111 frames

solve 5:
start of solve: frame 1867
end of solve: frame 2181
total frames: 315
cube touches surface:
[1867 1868] [1954 1964] [1984 1990] [2005 2009] [2117 2181]
90 frames

total frames of all solves: 1585
total frames of all solves with cube touching surface: 580
percentage: 580/1585 ~ 37%

Guess what, the difference in proportion is less than one percentage point. They're both around 36% (with sufficiently large error bars that the difference isn't statistically significant).
 

Lazy Einstein

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people still care about table abuse? I thought the community just agreed to let it happen
This thread is arguing that table abuse can give competitive OH solvers an advantage and that utilizing table abuse is not only a good idea but will be necessary to be competitive in OH at competitions.

Were you trying to figure something out or perhaps make a point?
 

qwr

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This thread is arguing that table abuse can give competitive OH solvers an advantage and that utilizing table abuse is not only a good idea but will be necessary to be competitive in OH at competitions.

Were you trying to figure something out or perhaps make a point?
oh I thought it was well known that table abuse helps
 

Lazy Einstein

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oh I thought it was well known that table abuse helps
Oh yeah. I think we can kind of tell but no one really seems to pay too much attention to it; outside of treating it like a weird meme. The stigma of table abuse usage not being real OH solving will cause many to avoid using it.

If it gives a clear advantage, I think we need to move to encourage OH solvers to work table abuse into their practices/algs/etc and make it something people feel they need to do to get good at OH.
 
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branson_lau

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most Oh solvers will be against banning table abuse.
top 10 OH average solvers
1Max Park9.42United StatesBerkeley Summer 20189.4311.328.808.6910.02
2Patrick Ponce9.50United StatesWCA World Championship 20199.869.437.8510.919.21
3Kian Mansour9.54CanadaNational Capital Region 20189.129.598.8715.439.91
4Iuri Grangeiro Carvalho9.64BrazilV ETEC Jacareí Open 20199.999.179.7517.459.08
5Feliks Zemdegs9.68AustraliaTurn Around Tassie 202011.217.699.188.64DNF
6Tudor Lin10.03United StatesLiberty Science Center Open 201910.499.249.9311.109.67
7Juliette Sébastien10.17FranceFranconia X 20198.599.759.9010.8711.81
8Bhargav Narasimhan10.20IndiaVJTI Mumbai Cube Open 201910.8612.4510.299.309.46
9Antoine Cantin10.35CanadaWCA World Championship 201911.8614.449.309.439.76
10Vincent Wong10.39AustraliaSydney Re-Open Saturday 20219.4410.1611.939.3711.58

everyone except Antoine Cantin uses table.
The point of allowing stickerless cubes is beacuse everyone loves it, so why ban table abuse when everyone uses it
if it is banned, max park wont be OH best solver anymore, he probably cant turn that well without table(and he uses ring instead of pinky)

in 3x3, if you drop the cube on the table with wrong auf and you auf again, the solve still counts.
for OH, it is a lot easier to drop the cube and everyone's focus will be not dropping the cube.
also, what about roux solvers, a main reason people use roux is because it is better than CFOP for OH.
what is the point of practising OH roux so long and you cannot use Roux on OH solving
and if you have a corner twist for OH, it will 100% be dnf.

another thing:
consistency is very important for comps. you cant allow using table for some events and ban using table for some specific events just for some people who doesn't use table.
people do megaminx on table and no one even questions it.
 

Lazy Einstein

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I’m also wondering about how the Regs would handle people dropping the cube. I know that I drop the cube a lot while doing OH, so would they just say that you can’t make any turns when the cube is touching anything except their chosen OH hand?
Yeah, that is pretty much the answer; more or less.

If the WCA wanted to deal with table abuse before they could have wrote something along the lines of:
  • C1b4) During the solve, the puzzle may not come into contact with the surface intentionally. Excessive puzzle dropping (3 or more times during a single solve) and/or controlled puzzle dropping on the surface are considered intentional, at the discretion of the judge. Penalty: disqualification of the attempt (DNF). (see Regulation 7f1d).
By adding this to article C, table abuse only becomes disallowed in OH solving.
 
Last edited:

xyzzy

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The point of allowing stickerless cubes is beacuse everyone loves it, so why ban table abuse when everyone uses it
The very point of this thread is to illustrate that table abuse provides a significant advantage over not using table abuse; the difference between stickerless and stickered is 99.9% aesthetics/maintainability/feel/etc., and 0.1% actual solving advantage.

Obviously people would table-abuse when it's allowed (and it is), considering the advantage conferred. (You wouldn't want to be a scrub, would you?) That doesn't make allowing table abuse a good rule.

people do megaminx on table and no one even questions it.
Guess I'm "no one" now, huh.
 
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