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[Help Thread] Stranded on Cross Island... (SOS)

Do you remember cross moves in notation or just how the edge pieces will move?

  • Notation

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • How the edge pieces will move

    Votes: 20 90.9%

  • Total voters
    22

lawofthecube

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Joined
Aug 14, 2020
Messages
101
Hey, I'm disabled regarding my ability to process information and remember stuff, not just in "time" but in sequencial order like with doing cross. Sometimes it's very difficult and sometimes it's just only so hard to think or process information! I have been enjoying having my cubing hobby for the last almost two years now, getting help from all the celebrities on YT and here and I'm so thankful...

As usual I was at Target buying Star Wars T-shirts and saw a rubiks cube so I tried really hard to do the basic cube method but that took forever and had to buy a $4 QiYi cube cause the Rubiks did not turn well. I then learned reduction for 2x2-7x7 and the Pyraminx and it was only after many months I said to myself maybe I could try the 4LLL method while all along I was always telling myself to never try the full Step CFOP because I can't remember very well but something came from inside myself and I went for it anyway and bought a expensive Gan XS and after learning 16 algs I said maybe if I keep trying I could end up doing Full Color Neutral CFOP and thus that's how my journey began!

I decided early on, about a month into full CFOP learning, that it would be beneficial to learn color neutrality but at the time I think I made that decision not so much about step 1 cross but to have a better understanding of the color scheme and mechanics of a six sided cube. Because of my dificulty in doing cubing I finally decided to do a spreadsheet, as I heard some do, so I could have all my information for all 4 CFOP steps in one place instead of going to different web sites and scrolling through many PDF's. I had to ultimately, to get me to remember stuff, had to learn CFOP backwards starting of course with PLL. I remember spending 5 months on a now gone web page for "color neutral" PLL recognition and by the end of the approximate 5 month PLL studying I had decent recognition, orientation and execution meaning I could do them mostly by heart with a ok finger trick. Also during that time I changed PLL's and found the one's that I could remember in reference to other PLL's.

Then I spent another 5 or 6 months studying/practicing full OLL with also learning decent recognition, orientation and execution's and am still getting to full OLL but my recoginition and finger tricks are ok along with orientation for my algs...

Then as logic dictates I went on the journey of F2L and learning JPerms 42 algs and started to also play with his more advanced and expert F2L algs. I really love F2L and it might be my strong point but I can't say that with absolute truth yet but am so excited to learn all the JPerm algs and more when I, if I can, get confident and finally and hopefully do well with color neutral cross first step!?

I wanted to show a little history of of my learning process so that if anyone with positivity and a supportive nature wants to tune in and help me they would know my mindframe and strategy a little so I might receive some help how I learn and how I'm challenged. I have watched literally every cross video in exsitance generally speaking and hundreds of times so I have the basic cross strategies and guidelines in mind and now I'm seeing what is hard and could use some assistance if anyone can tune into my disability and might have some good counsel or suggested training for me!?

To be honest it isn't the color neutrality necessarily that is hard and I've done much better with color scheme of the six sides but rather my difficulty is with remembering 3-4 steps in sequential order, assuming one cross edge is already solved etc..

I just can't seem to hold onto the simple 4 cross edges and their relation to eachother and order they are placed. I seem to blank out with the 3rd or 4th edge and forget what the 1st and 2nd edge was and it's like the edges vanish in my mind and it's like my mind is blank when I need it to be filled with either a alg or just seeing how I should do it. I have spent 5 months almost just doing cross and a solve after cross but I'm feeling stuck and can't seem to escape "Cross Island" as my post is titled and in being generally a positive person who exists in a more intuitive "using the force" type of mindframe, rather than what I might call a common intellectual state of mind. I might be able to apply good non-partial, non-flawed logic in some situations but I'm generally a intuitive human by nature and it seems to increase daily...

I don't know if this is enough for some rare person to get what is my challenge but I've worked so freaking hard I don't want to give up and even more true I feel if I could just get to a basic consistant cross solve that F2L and the LL part of CFOP would start to come together. I understand F2L through PLL is really about recognition and execution but cross as we know is making up, every time, a new alg or seeing a way to pull it off even when there are no edges done on any 6 sides or having to do 4 edges. I could really use some practice strategies or a master plan to get better at cross and hopefully have cross be more comfortable and good enough where I could start to see a first pair, X's Cross. Just for informations sake I still don't use my timer as I was told to hold off till I got around 20 seconds but if I was to guess my luckiest best solve might be around 35 seconds if everything went right and I remember LL etc...

I know this post may sound strange or maybe one of you may get what I'm saying and describing but I sure could use your help if you have the time and any insight to helping me again, getting off "Cross Island" where I feel stranded and can't seem to waive down down any passing cross teacher ships passing by...

I have attached my spreadsheet if anyone wants to help and needs a clue to how I've organized my mind with cubing...

I have also just yesterday purchased a inexspensive black cube and taken off the corner stickers, so I could just drill color neutral cross, but I usually solve or learn with my Gan 12 which is a pretty cool cube. I'm willing to take baby steps but I feel stuck and with my unique upbringing I was to advised to ask for help when I'm in trouble or feel stuck and after 5 months and not really seeing any improvement I had to make this post...

Color Neutrality Cross Practice Cube.jpg

Thanks you for listening and I hope in writing this embarrising post I might gain some insight and move through whatever is keeping me stuck and not getting Cross yet...

Kelly

:)
 

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lawofthecube

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2020
Messages
101
While I keep practicing/drilling just cross and wait patiently to receive some help or interactive training with the actual solving of cross, how do you, great cross people, actually choose which cross side to solve from?

Right now I just scroll forward like eating "corn on the cob" then look at the right and left sides and then pick the cross side with more edges than not already correctly adjacent and with, if applicable, no bad edges on the cross side and as little bad edges on the top? So kinda a lesser of evils (worst cross side to best) would be my choice at the moment. I'm also not in any kind of linear timer mode, I'm just sitting with no 15 seconds counting down...

I'm guessing with more expert solvers they are looking further in the cross with X cross's and first F2L pair etc but in a basic sense without so much lookahead how should a beginner/intermediate choose a side given they use color neutrality? Most of the video's, like JPerm, teach generally only white side cross...

I've watched many video's but can't really see into the solvers minds yet as to why they pick a side and again I'm just wanting to get through cross, not really doing XCross or first pair yet!

Thank you so much for any help with this, it really helps a bunch and I'd not be where I'm at without all the worlds help solving this speed cubing puzzle...

:)
 

PiKeeper

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2021KLIN02
I don't know much about your disability and how to best help with that, but here's some general advice for cross:
Jperm has a good video series going over how to find efficient crosses, so watching those might be helpful. Another good tool is speedcubedb's cross trainer, which gives you cross scrambles you can practice finding or you can look at their solutions if you can't find an efficient cross.

For finding the best cross in inspection, the main thing I would look for is edges attached to their centers. I usually pick my cross based on which color has the most edges paired with their correct centers. If there's more than one cross which looks good, I would check for flipped edges on that side to see if it would actually be a bad cross.

For example, in this scramble
F2 L2 U2 F2 D2 F D2 B' U2 F' L F2 L D' L U R2 F2 L B
I see the blue-orange edge and the white-green edge attached to their centers. This means the two easiest crosses will probably be blue and white, with orange and green slightly harder. The blue cross has a flipped edge on top and bottom, while white doesn't so I would solve white and do
z2 F2 L' D' R'

One more example:
L D2 F' L2 B' L2 R2 U2 F2 R2 U2 F D' U' B' L2 F R' F U
I see the orange-blue edge, the blue-yellow edge, the yellow-green edge, the green-orange edge, and the green-red edge all attached to their centers. This tells me the orange, green, yellow, and blue crosses will all be the easiest since they have at least two edges attached to centers. I don't like the green cross because the green-orange and green-red edges are in the wrong spot relative to each other. Blue has a flipped edge on top and bottom that aren't easy to solve, so I don't like it either. That leaves orange and yellow, which are about equal. For orange you can do
y' x' D' U' R F B' R2 which is a bit harder to find and has some advanced fingertricks for the F B'
or for yellow you can do
y D L F R' D R' which is also fast

Honestly, just keep practicing and it'll be easier to see patterns which lead to good crosses.
 

qwr

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I usually look at white, if it's no good then look at yellow. Only other color crosses if they're really easy and white/yellow are bad since they mess up my f2l (I can only do white/yellow cross)
 

lawofthecube

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2020
Messages
101
I don't know much about your disability and how to best help with that, but here's some general advice for cross:
Jperm has a good video series going over how to find efficient crosses, so watching those might be helpful. Another good tool is speedcubedb's cross trainer, which gives you cross scrambles you can practice finding or you can look at their solutions if you can't find an efficient cross.

For finding the best cross in inspection, the main thing I would look for is edges attached to their centers. I usually pick my cross based on which color has the most edges paired with their correct centers. If there's more than one cross which looks good, I would check for flipped edges on that side to see if it would actually be a bad cross.

For example, in this scramble
F2 L2 U2 F2 D2 F D2 B' U2 F' L F2 L D' L U R2 F2 L B
I see the blue-orange edge and the white-green edge attached to their centers. This means the two easiest crosses will probably be blue and white, with orange and green slightly harder. The blue cross has a flipped edge on top and bottom, while white doesn't so I would solve white and do
z2 F2 L' D' R'

One more example:
L D2 F' L2 B' L2 R2 U2 F2 R2 U2 F D' U' B' L2 F R' F U
I see the orange-blue edge, the blue-yellow edge, the yellow-green edge, the green-orange edge, and the green-red edge all attached to their centers. This tells me the orange, green, yellow, and blue crosses will all be the easiest since they have at least two edges attached to centers. I don't like the green cross because the green-orange and green-red edges are in the wrong spot relative to each other. Blue has a flipped edge on top and bottom that aren't easy to solve, so I don't like it either. That leaves orange and yellow, which are about equal. For orange you can do
y' x' D' U' R F B' R2 which is a bit harder to find and has some advanced fingertricks for the F B'
or for yellow you can do
y D L F R' D R' which is also fast

Honestly, just keep practicing and it'll be easier to see patterns which lead to good crosses.

Hey, which direction is the white edge pointed? I'm guessing you scrambled with white on top, green front but not sure if the white edge is front, back right or left assuming your solving with white on bottom!?

My disablity isn't really something one can analyze necessarily, just more so I can't hold 4 edges in my mind and haven't yet watched things as they moved around like with F2L and cross with knowing where edges and corners will end up. Ultimately I have Tramatic Brain Injury from an untreated concusian when I was small so it showed up later in life and as much as I might good be at things eventually it can, as obvious in this situation, take much longer to process simple stuff. I'm really in the future a little and maybe too hard on myself and even worse I can imagine getting really good at F2L - PLL with heavy drilling but making up my own alg every cross is brain challenging and it's like I hit a wall so to speak but I have such a positivity I'll keep on going forward and not give up...

I'll be watching these 3 you tube's to watch for those patterns you speak of and re-watch the JPerm playlist also to further watch his style and mindset in doing cross...




and working with the cross trainer as my next step...

I guess I'm just stuck having done so much and am still processing the full CFOP with color neutrality and keyhole etc which I've learned also. Your comment about keep practicing is the most helpful cause not being good at this makes me want to stop and give up so thank you...

I think that cross trainer is a great idea and I'll explore it tomorrow forward...

@qwr

Thanks for your insight!

:)
 

PiKeeper

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Location
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Hey, which direction is the white edge pointed? I'm guessing you scrambled with white on top, green front but not sure if the white edge is front, back right or left assuming your solving with white on bottom!?
The white edge is on the right. z2 means you rotate the cube 180 degree on the z axis, which would make it yellow top green front.
 

lawofthecube

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2020
Messages
101
The white edge is on the right. z2 means you rotate the cube 180 degree on the z axis, which would make it yellow top green front.
Dude, that is so cool. I love when someone does a cross solution for me, I guess there's lots of examples but yours was fun...

I think that might be how I may learn the best seeing other's attempts and cross algs. Like seeing through someone's eye's kinda like when your growing up and learning stuff from parents etc...

Basically I might be describing how I learn at least this, kinda like how people learn things in different ways, like seeing, doing or another way or such...

I think if I can learn how I learn regarding cross this will help and I'm thankful for you helping me start this process if that's what I'm doing!?

:)
 

lawofthecube

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I had a question so I did a poll at the top of this page to see what you think regarding cross tactics?

If you have an elaborate answer please leave a response as well as participate in the poll...

Thanks,

:cool:
 

lawofthecube

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Aug 14, 2020
Messages
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Knock on wood, I'm getting better. Not sure I've been here before but it seems I can remember 3-4 sequence edge steps better and am able to stand back and watch it happen instead of feeling like I'm inside what I'm solving as strange as that might sound. I'm noticing it was hard to be seperate from what I'm doing like all the information was squished together too tightly instead of having more room in my mind for things to take place if that makes sense? Basically I think I have a little perspective and the moral support helped also and also knowing I can get the algs for example solves is a nice thing to fall back on when I want to see the alg and how someone or the computer would solve it. I just have to go a little slower and run through the scheme in my mind before I make up my mind which sequence I'll choose to get the color scheme burned in my mind then decide which edges will go first, second etc...

There are so many options and ways to do it, it is interesting how people choose not just on how much lookahead they might apply but their own custom take and execution of a cross and even more interesting how a few different solvers would do the same cross side and what they see...

My mind feels a little less clouded now!

I also noticed I don't like doing things that aren't fun and now it seems kinda fun when practicing with my color neutral cross cube as the pictures show in above posts...

Thanks,

:)
 
Last edited:

qwr

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it takes lots of practice. when I started out I could only remember 2-3 edges so I did that. once I did many practice solves, seeing the 3 edge solutions, then I could start incorporating 4 edges. but it's still difficult for me on hard crosses
 

lawofthecube

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Messages
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it takes lots of practice. when I started out I could only remember 2-3 edges so I did that. once I did many practice solves, seeing the 3 edge solutions, then I could start incorporating 4 edges. but it's still difficult for me on hard crosses

Yeah, cubing is one of the most mysterious most beautiful things I've ever done, which like many things no one knows what it's like till they do it themselves, but wow is cross the hardest part of speed cubing for me so far 😮...lol

Thanks for your encouragement, today was a good day where I solved my cross training cube pretty well and it's so noticable that having 6 sides is such an advantage cause there's usually one edge solved and usually with no bad edges or not too many. I will be strickly doing cross training for 2 months probably till I get very consistant doing cross color neutrality smooth style but given cubing is the hardest thing I've ever done I'll try to be easy on myself and let it come hopefully naturally but really look forward to doing complete solves and drilling F2L and LL algs like I'm doing cross drill right now...

🙂
 
Last edited:

lawofthecube

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Aug 14, 2020
Messages
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So by popular demand, it is official, so far, that cubers, according to the above first post poll, are doing cross intuitevely not notation based! 100% and 11 out of 11 cubers are using intuition for the first step!? This is helping cause I can pay attention to my state of mind and the difference between when I'm in my "analyzer" thinking state and being intuitive/feeling or"using the force". For me this is a good observation because I am sensitive to my state of mind and am noticing when I'm doing well or "flowing" through cross I'm in a intuitive, not really thinking state...

So ultimately as I'm drilling color neutral cross I can acknowledge whether or not I'm in a thinking state or intuitive state and try to hold the intuitive state so my cross solutions come out more smoothly...

Screenshot_1.png

:cool:
 
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So by popular demand, it is official, so far, that cubers, according to the above first post poll, are doing cross intuitevely not notation based! 100% and 11 out of 11 cubers are using intuition for the first step!? This is helping cause I can pay attention to my state of mind and the difference between when I'm in my "analyzer" thinking state and being intuitive/feeling or"using the force". For me this is a good observation because I am sensitive to my state of mind and am noticing when I'm doing well or "flowing" through cross I'm in a intuitive, not really thinking state...

So ultimately as I'm drilling color neutral cross I can acknowledge whether or not I'm in a thinking state or intuitive state and try to hold the intuitive state so my cross solutions come out more smoothly...

View attachment 19704

:cool:
During inspection, think all you want during those little 15 seconds that you get. But during the solves, "Do not think. Just solve." -Max Park
 

lawofthecube

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Messages
101
During inspection, think all you want during those little 15 seconds that you get. But during the solves, "Do not think. Just solve." -Max Park

As new as I am to this awesome hobby I do remember Mr Park saying that but what I was saying was that in order for me to do well in cross I seem to do better if I'm in intuitive mode and I'm not anywhere near doing timed solves or using the 15 seconds inspection. My brain does not work like others and is damaged at the moment and as well as I might type or talk I have to break things down similar to me learning PLL first, OLL and F2L and finally cross which unbeknowing to me seems to be overwhelmingly the hardest for me. I wish I could like some here just study everything all together but I can't so as much as it's common knowledge the fastest solvers are in full "use the force mode" I am just trying to approach "just solve the cube mode"...

So basically seeing my mind or inside self and how it can be thinking or intuitive and how cross works best for me intuitive, cause it's not a muscle memory thing like F2L and especially LL so I just discovered it's important that I do it intuitive other than remembering notation for cross...

Edit: I "forgot" 😮 to share before I started cubing my mind was freaking totalled meaning I couldn't do things very well and it was very hard for me to learn or think like with cognitive delay, but now after doing cubes for 3 years and FULL BLOWN COLOR NEUTRAL CFOP for almost 2 years on Augest 15th, I have actually regained my mind a little and feel smarter and cubing is a direct result of this "mind training" and I weep a little with how it isn't just given me something to do, excel at or have esteem about but actually have helped me re-wright my brain and it's pathways. I havne't really had thoughts of quiting but with cross I started to feel in stop mode which is why I try to clarify so as to people knowing how I learn or what my dificulties are when I'm asking for help...

🙃
 
Last edited:
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So by popular demand, it is official, so far, that cubers, according to the above first post poll, are doing cross intuitevely not notation based! 100% and 11 out of 11 cubers are using intuition for the first step!? This is helping cause I can pay attention to my state of mind and the difference between when I'm in my "analyzer" thinking state and being intuitive/feeling or"using the force". For me this is a good observation because I am sensitive to my state of mind and am noticing when I'm doing well or "flowing" through cross I'm in a intuitive, not really thinking state...

So ultimately as I'm drilling color neutral cross I can acknowledge whether or not I'm in a thinking state or intuitive state and try to hold the intuitive state so my cross solutions come out more smoothly...

View attachment 19704

:cool:
1 cuber clicked the wrong button
 

qwr

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So by popular demand, it is official, so far, that cubers, according to the above first post poll, are doing cross intuitevely not notation based! 100% and 11 out of 11 cubers are using intuition for the first step!? This is helping cause I can pay attention to my state of mind and the difference between when I'm in my "analyzer" thinking state and being intuitive/feeling or"using the force". For me this is a good observation because I am sensitive to my state of mind and am noticing when I'm doing well or "flowing" through cross I'm in a intuitive, not really thinking state...

So ultimately as I'm drilling color neutral cross I can acknowledge whether or not I'm in a thinking state or intuitive state and try to hold the intuitive state so my cross solutions come out more smoothly...

View attachment 19704

:cool:

The human mind is much better at visual/spatial thinking than strings of letters. Same applies for blind solving. (Also why geometric intuition in say linear algebra is so powerful.)

If it's possible, close your eyes and try to imagine how cross edge pieces are affected by one or two moves. It will be difficult but you eventually learn common patterns. Also some blind solvers like to touch the stickers to where they go which may help visual memory.
 
Last edited:

lawofthecube

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Aug 14, 2020
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The human mind is much better at visual/spatial thinking than strings of letters. Same applies for blind solving. (Also why geometric intuition in say linear algebra is so powerful.)

If it's possible, close your eyes and try to imagine how cross edge pieces are affected by one or two moves. It will be difficult but you eventually learn common patterns. Also some blind solvers like to touch the stickers to where they go which may help visual memory.

Thanks and a question please? Does a double move like a F2 count as one move or two?

I ask cause 8 is the maximum cross moves for all cross solutions...

:)
 
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Thanks and a question please? Does a double move like a F2 count as one move or two?

I ask cause 8 is the maximum cross moves for all cross solutions...

:)
The answer is: it depends on the metric.

see: https://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/Metric

A metric (more specifically, move count metric or turn metric) is a convention for counting moves. The same sequence of moves can have different move counts depending on the metric used

HTM​

The half turn metric (HTM), also known as the face turn metric (FTM) is a metric for the 3x3x3 where any turn of any face, by any angle, counts as 1 turn

QTM​

The quarter turn metric (QTM), sometimes also known as quantum turn metric is a metric for the 3x3x3 where any turn of any face, by 90 degrees clockwise or counterclockwise, counts as 1 turn

STM​

The slice turn metric (STM) is a metric for the 3x3x3 where any turn of any layer, by any angle, counts as one turn. This differs from HTM in that a slice move counts as one turn, not two.

QSTM​

QSTM, short for Quarter Slice Turn Metric, is a move count metric for the 3x3x3 in which any clockwise or counterclockwise 90-degree turn of any layer counts as one turn, and rotations do not count as moves.

ETM​

The execution turn metric (ETM), is a metric for the 3x3x3 where any perceived movement counts as a turn; this includes rotations, but only if they require a regrip.
 
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