• Welcome to the Speedsolving.com, home of the web's largest puzzle community!
    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to join discussions and access our other features.

    Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community of 35,000+ people from around the world today!

    If you are already a member, simply login to hide this message and begin participating in the community!

Pseudo 3x3 shorter than 3x3?


May 7, 2006
Visit Channel
Everything you can do on a real 3x3 you can also do on a pseudo 3x3 (let's say on a 4x4). But a pseudo 3x3 allows more moves than a real 3x3. Can this save moves? Is there a 3x3 case that can be solved on a pseudo 3x3 in fewer moves than on a real 3x3?


Aug 4, 2012
If there is one I can't see it, any non-3x3 move done on a pseudo3x3 state will incorporate some 3x3 moves but also require something else to be undone. So it's ultimately going to be less efficient.

Christopher Mowla

Premium Member
Sep 17, 2009
New Orleans, LA
Visit Channel
I'm glad you guys bumped this thread because I remembered it the other day when I found the shortest PLL parity algorithm in qtm.

When I combined my PLL parity alg (Rw' S2 U D R2 U D Rw') with the PLL parity algorithm (Rw2 U2 Rw2 Uw2 r2 Uw2), the resulting pseudo 3x3x3 algorithm was shorter in both ftm and stm than the optimal 3x3x3 algs.
Rw' S2 U D R2 U D Rw U2 Rw2 Uw2 r2 Uw2 (15 ftm, 13 stm)
z2 x' B2 L U D R2 B E' M' B' U' D' L' S' U2
(17 ftm, 14 stm) (example optimal 3x3x3 alg in both ftm and stm)

We have another example if we combine my PLL parity algorithm with Rw2 F2 U2 r2 U2 F2 Rw2:
Rw' S2 U D R2 U D Rw F2 U2 r2 U2 F2 Rw2 (16 ftm)
U' R' U B F' R2 B' D L R' D' B' F2 D' U2 R D' (17 ftm)(example optimal 3x3x3 alg)

So we now have two more examples besides Stefan's.

I used cuBerBruce's single slice turn 4x4x4 optimal solver with my PLL parity algorithm as a setup, and it gave the following unique solutions (which are all related to my alg):

Rw' S2 U D L2 U D Rw'
Rw S2 U D L2 U D Rw

Rw' S2 U D R2 U D Rw'
Rw S2 U D R2 U D Rw

Rw U D L2 U D S2 Rw
Rw' U D L2 U D S2 Rw'

Rw U D R2 U D S2 Rw
Rw' U D R2 U D S2 Rw'
Last edited: