• Welcome to the Speedsolving.com, home of the web's largest puzzle community!
    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to join discussions and access our other features.

    Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community of 35,000+ people from around the world today!

    If you are already a member, simply login to hide this message and begin participating in the community!

mati rubik

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
287
Location
santiago, chile
WCA
2009MACA01
YouTube
Visit Channel
I was thinking something like give to each sticker a pair of letters, for example So, La, Re, Fi, Tu, etc, that way is really easy make longer words and is also easy to remember

the cycle DBL>RDF>URB can be US NU HA, and sometimes can create some words

there are 21 stickers in my memo system, so I only have to create 21 syllable and memorize just 4-5 in a normal cube, and just memorize the first two corners pure visual
 

cmhardw

Premium Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
4,106
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
WCA
2003HARD01
I was thinking something like give to each sticker a pair of letters, for example So, La, Re, Fi, Tu, etc, that way is really easy make longer words and is also easy to remember

the cycle DBL>RDF>URB can be US NU HA, and sometimes can create some words

there are 21 stickers in my memo system, so I only have to create 21 syllable and memorize just 4-5 in a normal cube, and just memorize the first two corners pure visual
As long as you can say the word/words in your method in under 10 seconds, then you can memorize it "for free" using your 10 second auditory loop :D
 

Julian

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
2,158
Location
Near Toronto, Ontario, Canada
WCA
2010DAVI06
Yeah, when I'm making letter pairs for corners, first thing I do is check to see if the first 4 letters work together better than 2 pairs of 2.

Now my question. I memo corners, memo edges, solve edges, and then solve corners, and I just memo the first 4 edge letters as letters (not pairs) and then make pairs with the rest. For example, my edge memo would be something like UNVG Quail HongKong Oil Ninja. I memo the first 4 letters this way because I jump right into them with execution. I know most people solve corners first, but I was wondering if anyone else does something similar to this.
 

cmhardw

Premium Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
4,106
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
WCA
2003HARD01
Mati, such a method would be much faster than 15 seconds for corners I would say. Trust me here, when you are comfortable with your method then you say the word/words once through and then just let them "echo" in your head while you put on the blindfold and start solving. If you've never tried an auditory memory method that's as powerful as the one you're describing you will be surprised at how effortless it is. As Ryan said, your brain is literally hardwired to do this task. There is no practice required whatsoever. You are already a world class expert at this memorization method. The only requirement is that your word/words must be sayable in less than 10 seconds.
 
Last edited:

RyanReese09

Premium Member
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
4,033
Location
Whiteford, MD, USA
WCA
2010REES01
YouTube
Visit Channel
When I'm doing corner memo, say the final memo is MEJPWB

I basically can look at any corner sticker and within a split second give you what letter it is, though when I memo I'll start out fast, such as ME would be instantly memo'd, but then I start going slower, or rather, I Feel the need to. MEJ..I'd say that in my head a few times while I scan for where the next corner is..MEJP, say a few times while looking (all the while, I am slow finding the next spot for the corner due to me not being able to multi task between saying the memo and getting the next corner.

All the way until the last corner. I have no idea what my corner memo is but let me go time one

TDRJIW was my memo for corner fro ma scramble, took me 26.47 seconds to memo them

I think I couid push sub20 because I had a pause (sleep deprivation cause?) but..is practice all I have left to do?

Also, I say (for that memo, literally (as well as most of my corner memo, unless it spells a word)) I say T D R J I W. Would using single syllable words allow me to memo faster? I feel that if I had words to memo that represented corners, I wouldn't feel the need to go over the memo constantly.

Ah, dragged this post out..
 

aronpm

Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2009
Messages
2,010
FU , do F E R U R' E' R U' R' F' M2
BD , do M2 D R' U R' U' M' U R U' M R D'
ಠ_ಠ
If you're going to do that alg for BD you might as well do the inverse for FU, it's nicer than you one you gave.
How would you suggest solving FU and BD?
I would have posted that earlier but I was posting from my phone. Anyway I suggest
FU: y' UM'U R2 U'MU R2 U2 y M2
BD: M2 y' U2 R2 U'M'U R2 U'MU' y

alternatively U x' M URU' M' UR'U' F' x M2 for BD. I prefer this one because it's really fast, and I use it (minus the M2 at the end of course) for DF->BD->UB.
 
Last edited:

Innocence

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
567
Location
Australia, mate.
I have a question, which is mostly just "will this work?"

I've been memorizing lately using single syllable letter pairs for edges (M2) and visual for corners (3OP). My problem is, memorizing visually is proving to be hard to do without disrupting my auditory loop. What's the easiest way to memorize my corners without thinking too much about it in words?

EDIT: @Aron/Ryan: Thank you, they're much better algs. I was beginning to find just flipping the edges at the end tiresome.
 
Last edited:

Mike Hughey

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
10,264
Location
Indianapolis
WCA
2007HUGH01
YouTube
Visit Channel
I've been memorizing lately using single syllable letter pairs for edges (M2) and visual for corners (3OP). My problem is, memorizing visually is proving to be hard to do without disrupting my auditory loop. What's the easiest way to memorize my corners without thinking too much about it in words?
Oh, you don't want to do that. You always want to memorize your auditory loop last and execute it first. If you have something mindless that you want to do in between (like flip edges or twist corners), it's okay to do that, but you want to absolutely minimize the thinking you do while maintaining your auditory loop - otherwise you don't get it "for free", like Chris describes.

So memorize corners first, then edges, then solve edges first and corners second. Visual isn't easy to keep in memory while doing something else, but it certainly should be more effective than trying to hold your auditory loop for last. Some people do whole 7x7x7s visually, so you should certainly be able to keep your visual corners in memory while you execute edges.
 

cmhardw

Premium Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
4,106
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
WCA
2003HARD01
Also, I say (for that memo, literally (as well as most of my corner memo, unless it spells a word)) I say T D R J I W. Would using single syllable words allow me to memo faster? I feel that if I had words to memo that represented corners, I wouldn't feel the need to go over the memo constantly.
Single syllable words memo is pretty powerful, yeah. You may want to consider it. Here is an average of 5 for 2x2x2 BLD trying to minimize memo time. My goal was to memo as quickly as possible, and I timed the full solve too.

13.28 memo (46.52 total); 8.05 memo (30.59 total); 7.64 memo (25.80 total - DNF); 8.94 memo (23.62 total); 8.77 memo (27.14 total)

Memo time included finding a good orientation for the cube to maximize already solved corners, as well as memorizing permuted but disoriented corners when I had them.

I'm not even claiming that I'm world class for corner memo. I'm sure there are others who memorize much more quickly. My point is that I can memorize corners in a manner that feels to me like trying to fall off a log. As long as I say my single syllable words in under 10 seconds, my memorization is already done for me by my brain. I'm really not joking when I say that I don't try to memorize the words. The only thing I try hard to do is say all of them in under 10 seconds. If you pull it off, then you can hear the entire set of words echoing in your head just long enough to get through the execution phase.

Taking Riffz' suggestion I use single syllable words for edges when doing 3x3x3, and although it takes more time to memorize more pieces, I can still say the entire memo in just enough time to hear the entire set of words "echoing" in my head just long enough to get through the solution phase.
 

Mike Hughey

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
10,264
Location
Indianapolis
WCA
2007HUGH01
YouTube
Visit Channel
As long as I say my single syllable words in under 10 seconds, my memorization is already done for me by my brain. I'm really not joking when I say that I don't try to memorize the words. The only thing I try hard to do is say all of them in under 10 seconds. If you pull it off, then you can hear the entire set of words echoing in your head just long enough to get through the execution phase.
By the way, I think this is one of the coolest things you've brought to BLD cubing, Chris. Free memo - how sweet is that? And I agree that it works, effortlessly.

I really am wondering if using the Major system, you could fit a whole 3x3x3 in an auditory loop without having to think? I know a lot of good people (many of the sub-minute solvers) essentially do this "on the fly", making up a coding as they go that's not really a fully-developed Major system, but it works like it (very heavily packed info). I wonder if fully developing it would buy the same results for us, Chris? Consistent sub-15 memo, perhaps?
 

amostay2004

Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2008
Messages
2,788
Location
Malaysia
WCA
2009SWEE01
YouTube
Visit Channel
So I tried an avg12 of corners BLD (scramble from Prisma Puzzle Timer, using blah's timer)

14.27(5.70), 19.77(7.91), 14.32(4.67), 12.68(4.12), 15.95(5.28), 22.79(10.45), 15.70(4.73), 21.58(6.38), DNF(5.13), 14.28(3.99), 14.99(4.53), 23.61(4.71) = 17.73 avg12

Memo times are in brackets. On the 2nd scramble I started executing some turns before remembering to hit the spacebar so it should be 6-ish memo, the same goes for the 6th scramble, so it's pretty safe to say I average 4-7 seconds in memo. Though the longer ones are usually because there are twisted corners to remember visually.

edit: regarding Mike's post above, I believe if someone can label each sticker PAIR with a single syllable on both edges and corners (I assume you would probably have to use characters from other languages as well), it can potentially be very fast. On a typical 3x3 memo it would take about 6-7 syllables for edges and 3-4 for corners, which isn't much to memo at all. The downside is it's gonna take looooong time to categorize all the cycles and a much longer time to get used to them. Also I suppose your execution has to be decently fast.
 
Last edited:

EricReese

Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
1,763
Location
Whiteford, Maryland, United States
WCA
2010REES02
YouTube
Visit Channel
Sorry for stupid questions but I am relatively new to BLD (not have a success yet, though Ive only attempted like 3 times..) but I have some M2 questions

For setup moves when the piece that is getting solved (its destination) is on the left/right faces, there is a 3 move setup always? I assume its intuitive but how do you know whether or not to do a U or U' at the start? I am a bit confused. He says to do a U/U' move, then a L/L'/R/R' move, then undo the original U move.

Could someone explain the rules of setup moves? My brother said he learned rules for them, like how many moves different setup moves are. I'm sure I will have more questions..
 

RyanReese09

Premium Member
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
4,033
Location
Whiteford, MD, USA
WCA
2010REES01
YouTube
Visit Channel
Single syllable words memo is pretty powerful, yeah. You may want to consider it. Here is an average of 5 for 2x2x2 BLD trying to minimize memo time. My goal was to memo as quickly as possible, and I timed the full solve too.

13.28 memo (46.52 total); 8.05 memo (30.59 total); 7.64 memo (25.80 total - DNF); 8.94 memo (23.62 total); 8.77 memo (27.14 total)

Memo time included finding a good orientation for the cube to maximize already solved corners, as well as memorizing permuted but disoriented corners when I had them.

I'm not even claiming that I'm world class for corner memo. I'm sure there are others who memorize much more quickly. My point is that I can memorize corners in a manner that feels to me like trying to fall off a log. As long as I say my single syllable words in under 10 seconds, my memorization is already done for me by my brain. I'm really not joking when I say that I don't try to memorize the words. The only thing I try hard to do is say all of them in under 10 seconds. If you pull it off, then you can hear the entire set of words echoing in your head just long enough to get through the execution phase.

Taking Riffz' suggestion I use single syllable words for edges when doing 3x3x3, and although it takes more time to memorize more pieces, I can still say the entire memo in just enough time to hear the entire set of words "echoing" in my head just long enough to get through the solution phase.
Alright, sometime this weekend I'll attempt a BLD solve with me just saying the letters on the fly and me trying to put on blindfold fast enough to solve. If it doesn't work Chris I'm coming for you :p.

I must admit that while I rely on auditory loop some, because I repeat the letters so much, it's basically memorized in a way, and that's not taking advantage of the free memo :(



If I don't memo all the corners in 10 seconds (say it's a hard scramble for corners) what should I do?
 

RyanReese09

Premium Member
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
4,033
Location
Whiteford, MD, USA
WCA
2010REES01
YouTube
Visit Channel
Eric, it's not always 3 moves. Sometimes it's 4. I think the maximum move count for a ssetup is 4 moves

You know the lettering scheme I use Eric. Find the V piece/sticker.

To bring the UB edge to the side of the V sticker (as to replace the edge with V) would you do U or U'? The answer is U, because you want the edge to go clockwise to the right hand side, then you would do an R2 to bring the V edge on top, then U' to put it back into place.

Eric Limeback goes into good detail of all this, go search it up. It will answer 99% of the questions you have. The only real rules is that there is no 1 move setup, and M slice edge rules/algs you have to learn (such as to use the opposite alg when the M slice is off by M2.)

Go watch his video.
 

cmhardw

Premium Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
4,106
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
WCA
2003HARD01
Sorry for stupid questions but I am relatively new to BLD (not have a success yet, though Ive only attempted like 3 times..) but I have some M2 questions
A question is only stupid if you never ask it.

Could someone explain the rules of setup moves? My brother said he learned rules for them, like how many moves different setup moves are. I'm sure I will have more questions..
I know how to do M2 in theory, but I've never actually done a BLD solve with it to be honest. If your buffer is DF, then most targets on R or L will have 3 move setups. You can get RF to UB by doing B' R2 B. DL you can get to UB by doing U' L2 U. The idea is to break up the M2 layer such that the piece that was at UB is now on either the R or L face. Then turn the target location to where the UB piece is "intersecting" that face, lastly restore.

Targets like UR can be a bit more interesting. I suppose I would do R' U R U' to setup UR to UB. Shooting to LU I would use B L' B' to setup.

--edit--
Ninja'd by Ryan

Alright, sometime this weekend I'll attempt a BLD solve with me just saying the letters on the fly and me trying to put on blindfold fast enough to solve. If it doesn't work Chris I'm coming for you :p.
Haha, good luck and for my sake I hope it goes well ;)

I must admit that while I rely on auditory loop some, because I repeat the letters so much, it's basically memorized in a way, and that's not taking advantage of the free memo :(

If I don't memo all the corners in 10 seconds (say it's a hard scramble for corners) what should I do?
If you don't happen to pull off saying everything in under 10 seconds, then I usually just review it in two portions. You will have gotten most of the words into your auditory loop, but some will be left over at the end. Just use rote memory with 2-3 really quick reviews of those last words to cram them in too, then start solving. Basically you get like 75% of your memo for free still, and you have to do some last second cramming for the leftover words.

You can tell that you haven't gotten some words into your auditory loop because your brain will feel "full." I don't know how to describe it, it's sort of an overwhelming "that's too much!" feeling. Once you get that feeling just rote memo through the rest of the pieces and review them as quickly as possible such as to not lose the auditory loop's "echoing" effect too much.
 
Last edited:

EricReese

Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
1,763
Location
Whiteford, Maryland, United States
WCA
2010REES02
YouTube
Visit Channel
to be honest I thought he was asleep. Its 1:30 here. Right now I'm using bldmasters videos. Limebacks is better? And sorry Ryan. I don't know 100% what yours is. I forget which piece you start out on. Is it UF or UB? I can't remember.

How can you know if a setup move takes 4? Intuitive I assume?

Also, he is explaining parity and he says I have to make a choice to do either R2 or classic pochmann style for corners. Recommendations? I plan on doing BH in a few weeks once I get M2 in muscle memory and learn everything about BH first.
 

RyanReese09

Premium Member
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
4,033
Location
Whiteford, MD, USA
WCA
2010REES01
YouTube
Visit Channel
I liked Limebacks. BLDmaster is good though, he clarified things for me.

You always start out on DF piece, that's equivilant to the UR edge of old pochmann edges.

V is the DR edge (D sticker). I've just done so many solves that I know it's either 3 or 4 setup moves needed. 3 is more common. It's not hard at all to find the correct setup. It's as difficult as finding a setup for old pochmann edges, just different place you have to get it set to.

Use Pochmann corners.
Parity, if you have it when you solve corners first, do R perm, solve edges, then do
U' F2 U M2 U' F2 U, then R perm

I doubt you'll have BH down in a couple of weeks, and comfortable enough to use in solves.
 
Last edited:
Top