# Need help minimizing cube rotations/improving time

#### Christmas

##### Member
Hey so I'm kinda new to this site but I guess this is an appropriate place to ask this

So I have kinda been into speed cubing and I average around 50 seconds with intuitive f2l, 2 look oll and almost full pll (learning g perms and n perms)
Anyway I have recently learnt to match pairs for intuitive f2l and inserting them and I have gotten good at that but I want to avoid doing so many cube rotations.
Right now I am teaching myself how to solve the cube without cube rotations in f2l but it is kinda slow, I'm just wondering if this is the right approach or should I learn some other tricks to help my time.
I don't plan to learn algorithmic f2l (well atleast not atm) but is reducing cube rotations my best bet for improving my time (still while finishing learning full pll)?

#### rj

##### Member
Hey so I'm kinda new to this site but I guess this is an appropriate place to ask this

So I have kinda been into speed cubing and I average around 50 seconds with intuitive f2l, 2 look oll and almost full pll (learning g perms and n perms)
Anyway I have recently learnt to match pairs for intuitive f2l and inserting them and I have gotten good at that but I want to avoid doing so many cube rotations.
Right now I am teaching myself how to solve the cube without cube rotations in f2l but it is kinda slow, I'm just wondering if this is the right approach or should I learn some other tricks to help my time.
I don't plan to learn algorithmic f2l (well atleast not atm) but is reducing cube rotations my best bet for improving my time (still while finishing learning full pll)?
Practice, and learn algs for the harder F2L cases. I did that and went to 35 seconds fast.

#### Daniel Wu

I wouldn't worry too much about cube rotations, as long as you're not doing more than 4 or so just to do F2L. I would worry more about trying to do F2L efficiently. Experiment and try to find the best ways to solve the corner edge pairs in a move efficient manner. And of course finish up PLL.

#### Tao Yu

##### Member
You shouldn't use no rotations at all. That would just lead to lots and lots of slow F and B moves during F2L. If a rotation makes moves less awkward then you should do it.
For example if your next pair can be solved by F' U F U F' U F U' F' U F, you should really be doing y L' U L U L' U L U' L' U L or even y2 R' U R U R' U R U' R' U R instead.

There is nothing wrong with reducing rotations though.
I would advise you to learn how to do your F2L pairs from different angles (not all angles, some angles suck and a rotation is better). There are also many cool F2L tricks out there as well, such as r U' R' U R U r' instead of y' U2 R' U' R U2 R' U R which allow you to deal with some awkward angles.

#### Christmas

##### Member
I wouldn't worry too much about cube rotations, as long as you're not doing more than 4 or so just to do F2L. I would worry more about trying to do F2L efficiently. Experiment and try to find the best ways to solve the corner edge pairs in a move efficient manner. And of course finish up PLL.
The only issue is that I can do LL in 10-15 seconds and the only thing dragging my time down is f2l which takes just shy of 40 seconds

#### rj

##### Member
The only issue is that I can do LL in 10-15 seconds and the only thing dragging my time down is f2l which takes just shy of 40 seconds

#### Christmas

##### Member
My cross averages about 6~8 seconds, is improving that more important?

#### ravenguild08

##### Member
My cross averages about 6~8 seconds, is improving that more important?
Yes, you should work on your cross. Practice to use as much of the 15 second inspection time as possible. To do that, give yourself infinite inspection time to find all four edges and be able to resolve the cross without looking. Crosses should take around 7 or 8 turns, maybe more if you want to use more ergonomic turns. Also force yourself to end up with the cross on the bottom to avoid the awkward x2 before transitioning into F2L.

I concur with what's been said about cube rotations: fewer is better in general. However, you should _never_ have y2 rotations, as that means you could have inserted or joined that pair using the back slots instead of the front.

And you are totally right. Finish learning the Gs and Ns to finish full PLL, then just ignore LL until you get your F2L down to like 20 seconds.

#### sneaklyfox

##### Member
Everything could use improvement. I say work on whatever you feel motivated to practice. But rotations are not the main thing you should worry about. Only y2 is truly bad. Some rotation is perfectly fine and as you get used to F2L, you'll learn some rotationless tricks along the way. Use them if you like them more but rotations can actually be useful. For F2L, the most important thing to getting it fast is probably look ahead. Cross should be efficient (try to have 8 moves max). F2L (cross included) generally takes up about 2/3rds of the entire solve. So if you are ~12s LL then F2L should be about 24s. Right now your LL is better than your F2L.

#### Carson

Post a video if possible. Although people here can give you some great general advise, it's hard to be specific unless we see you solve.

#### Christmas

##### Member
Post a video if possible. Although people here can give you some great general advise, it's hard to be specific unless we see you solve.
Alright I'll make one soon, should I post it in the video section and ask for feedback?

#### stoic

There's a terrific post here which you should find useful.

#### Christmas

##### Member
Well my video is up, sorry it took so long to upload
I skipped the scrambles since I take really long to do them but I hope I can get some good feedback!
Thanks

Last edited by a moderator:

#### pipkiksass

##### Member
Solve 1
You spend a lot of time analysing the cross, but then still take 9 seconds to execute it, including lots of pauses. There's a big time saving to be had here - without much change you could shave that in half.

You finish inserting the first F2L pair at 14 seconds, and don't start on the second till 18 seconds. Even without lookahead, pure practice and repetition will improve the speed at which you can recognise F2L cases and move onto the next. Just practice loads, maybe without timing all your solves.

With the 4th F2L pair, (28 seconds into the solve) a U turn will bring the red sticker onto the same side as the corner, R U' R' will pair them up and U R U' R' inserts. To set this up, do the reverse on a solved cube (R U R' U' R U R' U' - note this is the 'sexy' move twice). This is a really nice F2L case, as inverse sexy (U R U' R') is pretty much the fastest finger trick going. Just doing that twice will solve the case in maybe a second.

What you do is bring the corner out, then look at it a bit more, then insert. It takes about 7 seconds in all. That's 6 seconds you could chop off right there. The moral of the story is look for F2L 'algs' for cases you don't instinctively know how to solve, or just look at HOW algorithms or move sequences insert the pieces more efficiently than what you're doing already.

Other than that, you do a U5 (!) before the second OLL alg. There are only 7 (?) cases for the second look of 2-look OLL, so you should be able to recognise them fairly easily. If you can't, don't worry - this will come with practice.

Also, there's a big fat pause before the U perm at the end. I'm guessing you're hesitant as to which U perm you have? Again, this will come with practice.

Solve 2
Largely the same. Big pauses like that will go with practice alone.

If you want something new to learn, 1-look PLL wouldn't hurt. You spend a good second between the 2 looks of your PLL, so cutting out an alg and a pause would probably shave a few seconds off already.

Other than that, just practicing lots will help your brain recognise the patterns that it currently struggles with more easily. For example, when I started out cubing I found it really tricky to remember which was the Sune OLL and which was Anti-Sune. After a few weeks, I couldn't understand where my confusion had come from, it's so OBVIOUS to me now.

Happy cubing. :-D

#### Christmas

##### Member
Solve 1
You spend a lot of time analysing the cross, but then still take 9 seconds to execute it, including lots of pauses. There's a big time saving to be had here - without much change you could shave that in half.

You finish inserting the first F2L pair at 14 seconds, and don't start on the second till 18 seconds. Even without lookahead, pure practice and repetition will improve the speed at which you can recognise F2L cases and move onto the next. Just practice loads, maybe without timing all your solves.

With the 4th F2L pair, (28 seconds into the solve) a U turn will bring the red sticker onto the same side as the corner, R U' R' will pair them up and U R U' R' inserts. To set this up, do the reverse on a solved cube (R U R' U' R U R' U' - note this is the 'sexy' move twice). This is a really nice F2L case, as inverse sexy (U R U' R') is pretty much the fastest finger trick going. Just doing that twice will solve the case in maybe a second.

What you do is bring the corner out, then look at it a bit more, then insert. It takes about 7 seconds in all. That's 6 seconds you could chop off right there. The moral of the story is look for F2L 'algs' for cases you don't instinctively know how to solve, or just look at HOW algorithms or move sequences insert the pieces more efficiently than what you're doing already.

Other than that, you do a U5 (!) before the second OLL alg. There are only 7 (?) cases for the second look of 2-look OLL, so you should be able to recognise them fairly easily. If you can't, don't worry - this will come with practice.

Also, there's a big fat pause before the U perm at the end. I'm guessing you're hesitant as to which U perm you have? Again, this will come with practice.

Solve 2
Largely the same. Big pauses like that will go with practice alone.

If you want something new to learn, 1-look PLL wouldn't hurt. You spend a good second between the 2 looks of your PLL, so cutting out an alg and a pause would probably shave a few seconds off already.

Other than that, just practicing lots will help your brain recognise the patterns that it currently struggles with more easily. For example, when I started out cubing I found it really tricky to remember which was the Sune OLL and which was Anti-Sune. After a few weeks, I couldn't understand where my confusion had come from, it's so OBVIOUS to me now.

Happy cubing. :-D
I think I'm mostly having trouble with finding pairs, so recognising them would just come naturally with practise then right?

#### pipkiksass

##### Member
I think I'm mostly having trouble with finding pairs, so recognising them would just come naturally with practise then right?
Yeah, absolutely. Learning better ways to insert awkward cases will also help. Don't time all your solves, try solving more slowly and when you get stuck, look up the case you're stuck on.

I recommend freezing the video at the time I mentioned in my last post, and setting up the f2l case as described. It's a good example of this.

#### Escher

##### Babby
Going off that video, you've got the 'vocabulary' to cube, now you just need fluency - play and experiment with solving pairs as much as possible since recognition seems to be your weak point. Like others have said work on your cross. Finally, trust yourself! It seems like you do a LOT of double-checking. Just expose yourself to as much f2l practise as you can and speed will come - don't worry just yet about cube rotations - that kind of stuff isn't worth your time right now.