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How would Color Neutrality work in ZZ?

LexCubing

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
77
I really like the method ZZ but how would true color Neutrality would work in ZZ? I don't care how long it would take or how hard it would be but what about the concept. Is it good to be true color neutral on ZZ and how does it work? I mean crosses and blocks are easy but EOline?
 
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Daniel Lin

Guest
I really like the method ZZ but how would true color Neutrality would work in ZZ? I don't care how long it would take or how hard it would be but what about the concept. Is it good to be true color neutral on ZZ and how does it work? I mean crosses and blocks are easy but EOline?
well recognizing EO from all different orientations wouldn't be too difficult
Once you know your regular orientation (say white top green front) you can try recognizing EO from a y' away (white top orange front). Once you're used to those you can do it from x z away (orange top yellow front). From this position, everything is opposite from your regular orientation ( An edge that's oriented on white top green front will be unoriented on orange top yellow front)

but you also have to get used to the different line colors (24 in total) which is pretty annoying

so full CN is not recommended
 

LexCubing

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
77
Let's say you are CN and you got used to all 24 line colors. What are the benefits exactly and any strategy in choosing a color? How to rotate so that you have the least amount of bad edges?
 

AlphaSheep

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Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,079
Location
Gauteng, South Africa
WCA
2014GRAY03
There are only 3 orientations as far as EO is concerned, and each of those only had 4 possible lines, so there are actually only 12 EOLines. However, since it is so easy to influence the line during EO, there's very little advantage to being able to use any line, so if you were to be full colour neutral, it would make sense to inspect the three EOs, choose the easiest, then inspect the line based on that

There is only one person that I know of that is attempting colour neutral ZZ and that is @CubingGenius, and as far as I know, he only inspects one line for each EO.

Honestly though, EO is so easy, and the line is almost 3 moves or less, so there's only a marginal benefit to being fully colour neutral. Just y neutral is enough.
 

AlphaSheep

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Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,079
Location
Gauteng, South Africa
WCA
2014GRAY03
Yeah but I want to be CN :p I want that marginal benefit.
I mean there are only marginal benefits that need to be weighed against the downsides of full colour neutrality. The inherent assumption is that if one orientation has a bad EO, then one of the other 2 will be much better. However, what I notice is that if one is really bad, then very often all three will be not that great, and if one is good, then all three tend to be decent. You spend a lot of time in inspection looking at stuff that's not useful to your solves rather than doing something useful like influencing your first block. There's also the problems that you'll get worse times on the worst cases when you can't avoid them because you're less familiar with them, and that F2L is harder to recognise, but I'm ignoring these because they in theory go away with lots and lots of practice.

I just don't think saving a move or two on the occasional bad EOLine cases (which imho aren't actually that bad) is worth sacrificing the ability to influence your first block.
 
Joined
Aug 5, 2016
Messages
259
There are only 3 orientations as far as EO is concerned
i count 6;
w/y top g/b front
w/y top r/o front
g/b top w/y front
g/b top r/o front
r/o top g/b front
r/o top w/y front

i dont think its feasible even to be Z color neutral with zz, you only have 15 seconds
 
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Daniel Lin

Guest
i count 6;
w/y top g/b front
w/y top r/o front
g/b top w/y front
g/b top r/o front
r/o top g/b front
r/o top w/y front

i dont think its feasible even to be Z color neutral with zz, you only have 15 seconds
Half of these are the same, so there are only 3

Z rotations don't affect EO
 

CubingGenius

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2016
Messages
238
I really like the method ZZ but how would true color Neutrality would work in ZZ? I don't care how long it would take or how hard it would be but what about the concept. Is it good to be true color neutral on ZZ and how does it work? I mean crosses and blocks are easy but EOline?
For me it was extremely mentally demanding becoming semi-colour neutral and quite a few times I went back to normal for a few days. EOline colour neutral is definitely an advantage to non-colour neutral but it's not as big of an advantage as colour neutral is for methods like Roux, CFOP, Petrus etc.

Let's say you are CN and you got used to all 24 line colors. What are the benefits exactly and any strategy in choosing a color? How to rotate so that you have the least amount of bad edges?
I would split it up into 2 processes:

1. Determine the EO for each three possible angles and pick the best one using the method below.



2. Determine the misoriented edges and the permutation of the DL and DR edges, then work out a plan to solve EOline.

I believe with a lot of practice step 1 is a lot faster than step 2.

There are only 3 orientations as far as EO is concerned, and each of those only had 4 possible lines, so there are actually only 12 EOLines. However, since it is so easy to influence the line during EO, there's very little advantage to being able to use any line, so if you were to be full colour neutral, it would make sense to inspect the three EOs, choose the easiest, then inspect the line based on that

There is only one person that I know of that is attempting colour neutral ZZ and that is @CubingGenius, and as far as I know, he only inspects one line for each EO.

Honestly though, EO is so easy, and the line is almost 3 moves or less, so there's only a marginal benefit to being fully colour neutral. Just y neutral is enough.
Yes, the first paragraph would be a very sensible method to solve colour neutral EOline. I'm not really attempting colour neutral anymore; I would probably just use one line for each EO as you said. The reason is that the inspection would be a compromise of not being too time demanding, allowing planning into F2L and having better EOlines.

So I would only do EOline on there three angles:

White on U and Green on F
Green on U and Red on F
Red on F and White on U

That is also the priority I would choose the EOline in. Say I had 6 misoriented edges on white front, 8 on green front and 6 on red front. I would choose 6 on red front because white and red both have the lowest, but red front is higher on the preference list then white.

i count 6;
w/y top g/b front
w/y top r/o front
g/b top w/y front
g/b top r/o front
r/o top g/b front
r/o top w/y front

i dont think its feasible even to be Z color neutral with zz, you only have 15 seconds
The first statement is incorrect. EO is determined by the colour of the F face because RULD moves remain RULD after z rotations. Therefore, there would only be 3 EOs.

I do agree with the second statement though. Being z colour neutral does not give as much of an advantage as EO neutral in my opinion because the inspection is far longer and more often than not the lines are extremely similar to execute.
 
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