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How should WCA treat defunct countries?

qqwref

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The specific case I'm thinking of is Yugoslavia. The NR is held by Joszef Borsos, and is unlikely to be beaten since the Yugoslavia that existed at the time broke up around 1991. There is no easy one-to-one correspondence, either, because its territory is now divided up among more than 5 countries.

So, what should the WCA do in such an event? It seems kind of silly for me to keep someone listed as having a record for a country that no longer exists, especially when we don't list results from an event (old multiBLD) that was discontinued only a few years ago. There are a bunch of different possibilities, all the way from letting people like Joszef keep their record forever to deleting those people from the database entirely. What would you guys prefer?

Personally, I would vote for the following: when a country (e.g. Yugoslavia) breaks up, records are no longer kept track of for that country, although there may still exist competitors from that country if they haven't updated their location. So, Joszef would still be listed as representing Yugoslavia, but it would not be possible to search for competitors from Yugoslavia and he would not be listed as having a current NR. On his WCA profile page, I imagine the country listed as "Yugoslavia", and his best solve would still have a "NR" next to it, but a "-" would be listed for the national ranking instead of a "1". So basically for all intents and purposes he, and his time, would be treated as having no associated valid country.
 

BlueDevil

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I imagine the country listed as "Yugoslavia", and his best solve would still have a "NR" next to it, but a "-" would be listed for the national ranking instead of a "1". So basically for all intents and purposes he, and his time, would be treated as having no associated valid country.
I totally agree. When something becomes outdated (like rules, or a country) the results should remain on the database, but any achievements/rankings associated with the old system should become defunct and not be shown.
 

JasonK

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If we look to other sports, for example association football, the achievement (World Cup and Euro) of West Germany is attributed to Germany and Soviet Union to Russia.
May be we can do similar thing?
So are the records going to go to Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia/Herzegovina, Slovenia, Macedonia, or Montenegro?
 

Lofty

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I agree with you.
He legitimately set a NR back in 1982, I don't think that piece of history should be deleted.
The keeping of the NR next to the time shows that he set a record for his country but the current national ranking of "-" shows that his country doesn't exist. Seems good to me.
 

Thorsten

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From the view of a political scientist it's easy to say how this has to go:

When Yugoslawia was parted, every citizen had to choose wich country he wants to be part oft, therefore the nationality of him has to be changed.

But this is only the "legal" way. You're correct in saying, that he had a WR in 1982, and this part should not be deleted.
There has to be found a way to combine these two things in the data...

But, and this is (in my opinion) even more important, the WCA has to find a way to deal with this problem.
I always thought that the definition of states (the WCA quotes Wikipedia's List of souverein states) through the WCA is not sufficient. And wondered about that this has until now never lead to any problems.
The funny thing about this is: That all the other international sports associations have exactly the same problem, and every association has found a different way to deal with this...
 

aronpm

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Another solution is to stop keeping track of national and continental records entirely.
By the time we colonise other planets and abandon Earth, we'll need to stop keeping track of World Records too.
 

Hippolyte!!!

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What about just transfer all his time (just an avg in that case) to an other country in these five? He could tell us where he live if we have a way to contact him. It would be just like a change of country, but moreover, Yugoslavia would disappear of the database.
 

peterbone

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Contact Joszef Borsos and find out which country he now lives in, or find out where exactly he lived in Yugoslavia at the time and list him under the country that place is now in.
 

Erik

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Letting him choose would give 2 problems:

1. Contacting him
2. At the time he was the fastest of what are now 5 countries. Saying that he had the NR of lets say Bosnia & Herzegovina would imply he did not have the NR of Serbia etc. though at the time he did. :rolleyes:
 

Hippolyte!!!

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Your second point is the problem I guess we have with every change of country. What if a fast guy take the same nationality as you? You lost all your NRs. That's bad for you, but there's no other solution. On the contrary, if you've got NRs, and if you move in a high level country, you could not have any NR furthermore. Same conclusion. IMO, we don't have a perfect choice...
The first point is obviously more difficult to avoid...
 
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Slowpoke22

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A) Leave "Country" and "NR" blank, but still allow CR and WR results

or

B) Let "Country" and "NR" sections remain as they are if a competitor stopped competing while his/her country still existed, as is the case with Jozsef. But if someone originally from a country that no longer exists continues to compete, they must update their nationality to a country that does exist.

Overall, I think option A is the best solution. B is still a problem, partially because it can allow someone's "NR" to be unbeatable, which of course can be considered unfair (i.e., nobody can possibly beat Jozsef's NR).

Also, under no circumstances (well, apart from cheating) should someone's results be removed from the database.
 
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