# [Help Thread] Blindfolded discussion and help

#### PetrusQuber

##### Member
did u learn old pochman? u should learn that first. Jperms tutorial is the best.
You are replying to a post from 12 years back. Please check the date of the post before you reply.

L

#### lucarubik

##### Guest
cubefreak.net thats maki's site thats where I learnt from!
macky*

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#### Dylan Swarts

##### Member
Hello SS forum, I've got a quick question about 4x4 blindfolded.

So, I have recently begun learning the Eka method for 3BLD edges, and I really love the method. I'm hoping that I can use it as a stepping stone to learn more comm sets, and eventually "full" 3-style.

But I can only solve 4x4 blindfolded with U2, R2, and OP.

So my question is....

Does there exist any so-called "intermediate" methods for 4x4 blindfolded that aren't full 3-style? Something like a Orozco or Eka equivalent for 4x4 Blindfolded?

Thanks! I'm deeply sorry if this has been asked before on this thread, I must have missed it.
There is!
The first video I saw on this was Adrian Debski's but it used the Ubl buffer, which is not what we want, we want Ufr.
So I went ahead and made one, using the knowledge from that video. It is pretty easy, so I can't take any credit, except for compiling it in one (very badly managed) spreadsheet and adding a few useful things for some cases.
Basically:
-All F, R, L, B face targets set up to the left-top most corner, all D targets to the Dfr position, and with a few algs, you can solve any combination of those (except if you have like 2 targets on one face, which is utterly useless).
-For U face and F/R/L/B face target combination, you do it intuitively (using Orozco and basic comm knowledge).
-For U face and D face combo's, you learn a very inefficient way, but it allows you to solve those cases, until like 2 days later when you learn the proper few algs.
Here it is, I might make a video tutorial but this should suffice.

PS: As I opened the document I realized just how bad it is, I do apologize, I shall have to do something about that..

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#### Dylan Swarts

##### Member
Sorry, just realized you asked for 4bld as a whole and not just centers, but this should help move count of centers a bunch. As for the other piece types:
-Corners: just use orozco, takes a while to get used to exec, and figure out your own way of dealing with parity.
-Wings: I use orozco, which I directly translated over from edges on 3bld and 'learnt' a handful more algs.
Hope that helps.. \o/

#### y235

##### Member
Hello SS forum, I've got a quick question about 4x4 blindfolded.

So, I have recently begun learning the Eka method for 3BLD edges, and I really love the method. I'm hoping that I can use it as a stepping stone to learn more comm sets, and eventually "full" 3-style.

But I can only solve 4x4 blindfolded with U2, R2, and OP.

So my question is....

Does there exist any so-called "intermediate" methods for 4x4 blindfolded that aren't full 3-style? Something like a Orozco or Eka equivalent for 4x4 Blindfolded?

Thanks! I'm deeply sorry if this has been asked before on this thread, I must have missed it.
You could adapt Orozco, Eka, or TuRBo to 4x4 quite easily - the principles remain the same, you just need to find the right algs. Let's take Orozco for example - you just need to generate the algorithms for all the Buffer-Helper-Target cycles.
Luckily, you can take the algorithms from Oliver Frost's big bld 3-style alg sheet (clickable). Or you can generate them on your own - but if you can do that, you don't need to learn those intermediate methods.

#### Dylan Swarts

##### Member
I just learned orozco for corners and I was wondering if anybody had tips for me. I didn't memorize the algs, I do them semi intuitively (is that bad?).
I am having trouble especially with the Q and N stickers. Everytime I solve one of them I always mess it up for some reason.

Thanks!
Okie, let's go

Intuitive = good.
I wish I had known enough to have learnt it intuitively, but I did not.

Tips:
Well, practice a lot, drill the comms until you can do them pretty quick. Do corner only solves on CsTimer.net

N, Q:
I'm assuming speffz, as on speffz, those are the stickers on the helper buffer and the only confusing ones. It is pretty hard to remember so you just gotta find a way to remember it.
if N = 1st letter then
else (if N= 2nd letter)

if Q = 1st letter then
else (if Q = 2nd letter)
Basically when N is the first letter in the letterpair/ Q is the second letter in the letterpair, do U first
if N is second/ Q is first, do double-upside-down-sexy first

#### NevEr_QeyX

##### Member
Okie, let's go

Intuitive = good.
I wish I had known enough to have learnt it intuitively, but I did not.

Tips:
Well, practice a lot, drill the comms until you can do them pretty quick. Do corner only solves on CsTimer.net

N, Q:
I'm assuming speffz, as on speffz, those are the stickers on the helper buffer and the only confusing ones. It is pretty hard to remember so you just gotta find a way to remember it.
if N = 1st letter then
else (if N= 2nd letter)

if Q = 1st letter then
else (if Q = 2nd letter)
Basically when N is the first letter in the letterpair/ Q is the second letter in the letterpair, do U first
if N is second/ Q is first, do double-upside-down-sexy first
Thanks! I watched some more tutorials that say to do the ZBLL that goes lefty sune —) sune and reverse it for N. I think it works, I mean it hasn’t not worked, but maybe I keep getting lucky idk. My only problem is now I can’t seem to do edges anymore, lol, so I thought maybe It’s time to learn a comm based edges method, is orozco or eka edges significnatly better than M2?

#### VIBE_ZT

##### Member
You could adapt Orozco, Eka, or TuRBo to 4x4 quite easily - the principles remain the same, you just need to find the right algs. Let's take Orozco for example - you just need to generate the algorithms for all the Buffer-Helper-Target cycles.
Luckily, you can take the algorithms from Oliver Frost's big bld 3-style alg sheet (clickable). Or you can generate them on your own - but if you can do that, you don't need to learn those intermediate methods.
I actually just found an Eka wings tutorial by Adrian Debski which is actually quite good!

I will definitely have to experiment with the centers method that @Dylan Swarts came up with though, (maybe add to it ). I'll see what I can come up with!

For now though, my priority is learning Eka on 3x3, but I think after that, I might just have to take a look at this stuff .

Thanks all for the help!

#### Dylan Swarts

##### Member
Thanks! I watched some more tutorials that say to do the ZBLL that goes lefty sune —) sune and reverse it for N. I think it works, I mean it hasn’t not worked, but maybe I keep getting lucky idk. My only problem is now I can’t seem to do edges anymore, lol, so I thought maybe It’s time to learn a comm based edges method, is orozco or eka edges significnatly better than M2?
Both are quite a bit better, but a number of people will recommend Eka over Orozco. I used orozco and I was very happy with it, although Eka seems really interesting and I do believe it will give a better understanding on comms, because you need to think a bit more than Orozco. Also Eka solves 2 pieces at a time, where Orozco does not, but Orozco comms might in some cases be faster than the Eka way of solving it.

#### WarriorCatCuber

##### Member
Thanks! I watched some more tutorials that say to do the ZBLL that goes lefty sune —) sune and reverse it for N. I think it works, I mean it hasn’t not worked, but maybe I keep getting lucky idk. My only problem is now I can’t seem to do edges anymore, lol, so I thought maybe It’s time to learn a comm based edges method, is orozco or eka edges significnatly better than M2?
Eka is better then M2, Orozco is worst then M2. So OP<Orozco<M2<eka<3-style

#### fun at the joy

##### Member
Eka is better then M2, Orozco is worst then M2. So OP<Orozco<M2<eka<3-style
never knew that you are such a bind expert

#### WarriorCatCuber

##### Member
never knew that you are such a bind expert
I am no blind expert. I have never gotten a success and am still trying to learn more stuff.
That comes from the beginning of this video

#### sqAree

##### Member
I am no blind expert. I have never gotten a success and am still trying to learn more stuff.
That comes from the beginning of this video
Sure, let's say something about the general viability of different methods based on a bo1 result of a random case of a random person who may or may not be more comfortable with one of the methods than the other.
M2 is literally a special case of Orozco and thus worse.

#### NevEr_QeyX

##### Member
Both are quite a bit better, but a number of people will recommend Eka over Orozco. I used orozco and I was very happy with it, although Eka seems really interesting and I do believe it will give a better understanding on comms, because you need to think a bit more than Orozco. Also Eka solves 2 pieces at a time, where Orozco does not, but Orozco comms might in some cases be faster than the Eka way of solving it.
Ok thanks! I think I'll try Eka but if that is too difficult I'll do orozco.

#### sigalig

##### Member
People who say you shouldn't learn M2/OP are stupid. It's a great next method after full OP. Also think hard before you commit to 3-style, even though everything is a commutator you still have to learn them and know the few hundred different ones, you can't just make them up on the spot
I know at least 10 top 3blders who say you shouldn't learn M2. In their opinion, if you plan to eventually learn 3style, you should just start with op/op and from there do UF/UFR orozco, then 3style. Anything else is a huge waste of time.

Given that you didn't realize the info above, or know that orozco can be used for both corners and edges, I'd say it's a bad idea to make such strong statements like you have about anything related to 3bld. You should make sure you're actually fairly knowledgeable on the subject before calling a bunch of actually knowledgeable people "stupid".

#### tx789

##### Member
Also think hard before you commit to 3-style, even though everything is a commutator you still have to learn them and know the few hundred different ones, you can't just make them up on the spot
Wrong. You can make then up on the spot if you understand how comms work. You will want to change to speed optimal ones if you really care about being fast. But you can make then up on the spot.

#### BenChristman1

##### Member
Orozco is for corners, not edges. And just because your buffer is something different for M2 doesn't mean you can't ever change it to UFR if you do continue to 3-style.

I'd also like to here the opinions of @sigalig and @porkynator (best 3BLDers I know of on the forums)
Who is @porkynator?

#### mitja

##### Member
I've read all of your comments, coming to conclusion i will at first learn orozco for corners and stick to OP for edges for while to get into it (with orozco ofc) and then go for 3-style corners. Then figure something out with edges, cause as @sqAree said, there is no point at all to learn this.

btw. @sqAree can i dm you for further questions or something?
I can tell from my experience that switching from M2 for edges to 3 style is quite hard. In the last 2 years i tried few times but i felt uncomfortable with DF buffer so I gave up. Which, by the way, is great for avanced M2. I read above some underestimaton for this method, but it is very fast and very much like 3style with UB as helper piece. Also, if you keep the DF buffer it is very convenient for gradual transition. Whenever you don’t know the comm, just use advanced M2 and you don’t loose much on speed.
I had a lot of time in the last 1 1/2 month and I finally forced myself to switch the buffers to UFR/UF. I needed 2 weeks to get used to it and about full month to learn and not want to use my old method. In my case there is no way to use your old method when you get lost. Especially with edges.
but, with the edges, UF buffer is really good for the slower person like me.( i am not very young anymore).
One more thing, everybody recommends to learn corners, then edges. But form me, edges are a bit easier with UFR/UF. I understand it is opposite with UBL/DF.
I never tried Orosco, but it sounds very good for understanding 3 style.

#### Jack Chan

##### Member
What do I do when I get RU in Orozco?
I am learning Orozco method. Hope you guys will help me.