# Efficiency of 5x5 edges methods

#### mark49152

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
At UK Championships there were some discussions about 5x5 edges methods, and we agreed it would be interesting to study the relative move efficiency of different approaches. So, that’s the purpose of this thread. I’d like to see how you solve 5x5 edges and in particular, how efficient your method is. I’m also looking forward to learning a few things .

Instructions: Please use the scrambles in this post so that we can compare solutions. Scramble with your cross colour facing down. Then solve edges, and post your solution and your move count.

Finished state is defined as follows:-
• All tredges formed, except you may leave 1-2 ready to be fixed by a parity or L2E alg (I’m not interested in counting moves in parity algs).
• Cross must be formed on bottom ready for F2L; other tredges can be in any permutation.
• Any centers that you usually fix mid-way through edges can be left broken (I’m not interested in counting moves to fix centers).

Scrambles are from qqtimer.net (5x5x5 edges under bigcube subsets, but with lower-case replaced with 'w' format to avoid any ambiguity about whether qqtimer.net intends these to be wide or slice moves).

1. Rw R Bw B Uw Dw2 R D2 R' Uw' L D L' Dw' F U F' Dw2 L D L' Uw L D L' Dw2 L' U' L Uw2 Dw2 F D F' Uw2 R U' R' Uw' Dw U D2 B' Bw' R' U2 Rw U2 Rw U2 Rw U2 Rw

2. Rw R Bw B Uw Dw F' U' F Uw' B D' B' Uw' Dw2 F' U F Uw R D2 R' Uw F' U2 F Dw' R D2 R' Uw2 Dw B' U2 B Dw F U2 F' Uw U2 D B' Bw' R' Rw'

3. Rw R Bw B Uw2 Dw2 L' D2 L Dw L D L' Dw' L U' L' Uw Dw2 F' D2 F Dw2 B U' B' Uw2 Dw B U2 B' Uw2 Dw' R U' R' Uw Dw B D B' Dw U D2 B' Bw' R' U2 Rw U2 Rw U2 Rw U2 Rw

4. Rw R Bw B Uw' Dw2 B' U2 B Uw' L' U L Uw2 Dw' F U F' Uw2 Dw' R' D R Uw Dw2 B U' B' Uw Dw F D F' Dw2 L' U' L Dw2 L D2 L' Dw U2 B' Bw' R' Rw'

5. Rw R Bw B Uw Dw2 B D B' Dw' B' D B Dw' L U' L' Dw B U B' Uw' Dw' F U F' Uw' B' U2 B Uw2 Dw2 F' D F Uw2 Dw' B D2 B' Uw Dw' U D' B' Bw' R' Rw'

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#### mark49152

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
My solution to scramble #1. Method: Hoya & AvG.

L F’ L’ B D L’ // midge cross = 6
U’ D Lw’ U Lw // DL half = 11
U2 Rw U’ Rw’ // DL = 15
U’ D’ Lw’ U Lw // DF half = 20
Rw U Rw’ // DF = 23
D’ Rw U Rw’ // DR half = 27
D’ B’ Lw’ U2 Lw U B // DB = 34
D Lw’ U Lw // DR = 38
F’ R’ // fill BR = 40
Lw’ U’ Lw // FR half = 43
L U’ L’ U Rw U’ Rw’ // FR = 50
F L // fill BL = 52
(would usually fix last 2 centers here)
F U F’ Uw // BR half = 56
L’ U2 L Uw’ // BL half = 60
F U F’ Uw // UF half = 64
F U F’ Uw’ // UL half = 68
U’ L’ U L Uw // UR half = 73
L’ U’ L F’ L F L’ Uw’ // FL half = 81
R U2 R’ Uw // UR = 85
L’ U’ L Uw’ // FL = 89
F’ // fill DF = 90
F U2 F’ Uw // UF = 94
F U F’ Uw2 // UB half = 98
R U R’ F R’ F’ R Uw // UB = 106
U2 R F L' D // fix cross and setup for L2E = 111
(now fix L2E)

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#### yoinneroid

##### Member
this will probably be way more efficient per tredge formed than what I usually do in solves.
scramble 1
y' 3Uw' F' U F 3Uw Uw' R' D' R // 5
U R' U' R Uw y2 // 10
D F D' F' Uw' F' U' F Uw // 19
D' R' D R Uw' R U R' Uw // 28
R U R' U F' U' F Uw' F D F' Uw //40
R U' R' Uw L' U L Uw2 R U' R' Uw // 52
y' R' U2 R Uw R U R' U' F' U F Uw' y2 // 64
R U2 R' Uw' F' U' F Uw // 72
F D F' Uw L D L' Uw2 R U R' U' F' U F Uw // 88
L2 U' R2 F // 92 cross
flipped edge BL left

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#### guysensei1

##### Member
What if I use Yau5? There will be 2 F2L pairs solved after reduction...

EDIT: I was thinking perhaps take the move count I get after reduction, and subtract the moves I used to solve the 2 pairs?
EDIT2: Aah this isn't suitable for Yau5 at all, I can't do cross+centers my way as centers are already done.

#### Christopher Mowla

##### Premium Member
Do you want us to interpret these scrambles as being in old WCA notation or in SiGN?

#### mark49152

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
this will probably be way more efficient per tredge formed than what I usually do in solves.
That's OK as long as the solution is what you might reasonably do in a speed solve if you "mastered" your method.

What if I use Yau5? There will be 2 F2L pairs solved after reduction...
Write down the full solution since it will affect other edges. For comparison of move counts, I suggest counting 6 moves total for those slots, as that's what it would cost to insert arbitrary solved tredges to knock out the unsolved ones. Is that fair?

Aah this isn't suitable for Yau5 at all, I can't do cross+centers my way as centers are already done.
Any centers that you usually fix mid-way through edges can be left broken (I’m not interested in counting moves to fix centers).

Do you want us to interpret these scrambles as being in old WCA notation or in SiGN?
Yes I noticed that when yoinneroid's solution did nothing but scramble my cube further . I've fixed the OP to explicitly show wide moves. (Interestingly, the qqtimer.net scrambles preserve centers using either interpretation.)

#### guysensei1

##### Member
Any centers that you usually fix mid-way through edges can be left broken (I’m not interested in counting moves to fix centers).
I get this, but the deal here is that the 4 cross tredges in Yau are solved before the last 4 centers, thus attempting to do Yau on a centers-solved 5x5 doesn't work well...

#### mark49152

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I get this, but the deal here is that the 4 cross tredges in Yau are solved before the last 4 centers, thus attempting to do Yau on a centers-solved 5x5 doesn't work well...
You can break those centres. Solve the four cross dedges, breaking the centres, then skip fixing those centres and move on to solving the rest of the edges. (My Hoya solution messes up the F and U centres.)

#### ~Adam~

##### Member
I've favourited this thread and will get round to it in the near future.

#### guysensei1

##### Member
You can break those centres. Solve the four cross dedges, breaking the centres, then skip fixing those centres and move on to solving the rest of the edges. (My Hoya solution messes up the F and U centres.)
Oh I see. I thought you were referring to 'break' as the simple misaligning of the center layers.
I'll do this ASAP.

#### Goosly

##### Member
Sorry, writing down my whole solution would take too much time. Just movecount + whether or not I left the L2E unsolved.

I setup to (Uw' R U R' Uw) to solve 2 half-edges or a whole edge if possible, until I get the 2-swap case for L2E (unless they're solved already). So that's reduction I guess.

1. 93 (L2E unsolved)
2. 100 (all edges solved)
3. 107 (L2E unsolved)
4. 107 (all edges solved)
5. 107 (all edges solved)

#### Christopher Mowla

##### Premium Member
I am guessing that this is for speedsolving purposes, but I just wanted an excuse to practice my edge pairing method on the first scramble. (If I would have used a computer search to aid me, I of course would have gotten fewer moves. Also keep in mind that this took about 45 minutes to solve!)

74 OBTM, 62s (With all centers completed, one tredge incomplete, and four cross-edges solved in D layer).

EDIT: I just tried the 5th scramble, and it's harder for me, at least:

83 OBTM, 69s (With all centers completed, two tredges incomplete, and four cross-edges solved in U layer).

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#### ~Adam~

##### Member
Oh wow. So Hoya, middle 4 edges free slice, placed 2 solved in back then made 2 more and left last 2.

1. 91
2. 80
3. 80
4. 73 (no flipping algs required)
5. 82

I'll post an example solve when I have time.

#### Hssandwich

##### Member
With Hoya cross edges:
z2 y D2 Rw R' U' Rw' R U Rw U' Rw' //WO
R' D' F U F' Lw F' Lw' R' B Rw U2 Rw' //BW
D' U2 F2 Rw' Lw F Lw' Rw2 U2 Rw' U Rw U' Rw' //RW
R D' Rw' R F Rw R2 Rw' Lw F Rw Lw' R D' //GW
F L F' Rw' F' Rw2 U2 Rw' U Lw' U2 Lw U' Rw' Lw F2 Rw Lw' U Lw' U2 Lw L' F' //L2C
F' U2 F Uw' E R U R' F R' F' R Uw E' //RY
L' U L Uw2 L' U' L F' L F L' Uw2 //OG
U' R U R' y Uw' U F' U' F Uw //RB
Dw U R U' R' Dw' //RG
R' U R2 U' R' Uw F U F' Uw' //YO
F U2 F' E R U R' E' //YB&GY
z' Rw2 B2 U2 Lw U2 Rw' U2 Rw U2 F2 Rw F2 Lw' B2 Rw2 U2 z //Parity

https://alg.cubing.net/?puzzle=5x5x5&alg= z2_y_D2_Rw_R-_U-_Rw-_R_U_Rw_U-_Rw-_//WO R-_D-_F_U_F-_Lw_F-_Lw-_R-_B_Rw_U2_Rw-_//BW D-_U2_F2_Rw-_Lw_F_Lw-_Rw2_U2_Rw-_U_Rw_U-_Rw-_//RW R_D-_Rw-_R_F_Rw_R2_Rw-_Lw_F_Rw_Lw-_R_D-_//GW F_L_F-_Rw-_F-_Rw2_U2_Rw-_U_Lw-_U2_Lw_U-_Rw-_Lw_F2_Rw_Lw-_U_Lw-_U2_Lw_L-_F-_//L2C F-_U2_F_Uw-_E_R_U_R-_F_R-_F-_R_Uw_E-_//RY L-_U_L_Uw2_L-_U-_L_F-_L_F_L-_Uw2_//OG U-_R_U_R-_y_Uw-_U_F-_U-_F_Uw_//RB Dw_U_R_U-_R-_Dw-_//RG R-_U_R2_U-_R-_Uw_F_U_F-_Uw-_//YO F_U2_F-_E_R_U_R-_E-_//YB&GY z-_Rw2_B2_U2_Lw_U2_Rw-_U2_Rw_U2_F2_Rw_F2_Lw-_B2_Rw2_U2_z_//Parity&setup=Rw_R_Bw_B_Uw_Dw2_R_D2_R-_Uw-_L_D_L-_Dw-_F_U_F-_Dw2_L_D_L-_Uw_L_D_L-_Dw2_L-_U-_L_Uw2_Dw2_F_D_F-_Uw2_R_U-_R-_Uw-_Dw_U_D2_B-_Bw-_R-_U2_Rw_U2_Rw_U2_Rw_U2_Rw

#### Dene

##### Premium Member
I don't understand why cross has to be finished if you're looking for the most efficient edges method. I do straight redux, so that would be an extra step after doing edges.

#### ~Adam~

##### Member
Because Yau and Hoya build these edges in place.

It wouldn't be a fair comparison if you don't get to the same point in the solve.

#### Meep

##### Member
1) 66
2) 59
3) 67
4) 65
5) 69

Notes: http://pastebin.com/mN4ixgYR
I solved the last 2 edges before doing the cross, then subtracted the length of the L2E alg from the total move count. E moves were counted as 2 moves, and flipUF/flipFR is 7. The +x at the end is how many moves it took me for the cross - I didn't bother writing the moves down.

#### yoinneroid

##### Member
Yes I noticed that when yoinneroid's solution did nothing but scramble my cube further . I've fixed the OP to explicitly show wide moves. (Interestingly, the qqtimer.net scrambles preserve centers using either interpretation.)
Sorry, fixed my solution, it should have been Uw at the third line (instead of Uw')

#### ryanj92

##### Member
solution 1
solution 2
solution 3
solution 4
solution 5

i tried to stick to yau5 as much as possible - i included inserting the 2 F4L pairs, and i inserted the last cross edge like i would during a solve.

the steps in each solve are:
- 3 cross edges
- final cross edge
- 4 edges
- 2 F4L pairs
- 2 edges, setup to L2E

(i just realised i inserted the second f2l pair wrong on the first solve... )

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#### ch_ts

##### Member
done by matching wing edges then center edges, then cross
1. 82 BTM
2. 79 BTM

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