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Choosing the right ZZ Variant

Lupus3141

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2020
Messages
11
Hello everyone,

in the last few weeks, I got more and more into ZZ and its variants and even if I main CFOP for a few years now, I really enjoy the advantages that come with EO.
My current averages of 100 are 15.4 with CFOP and 17.4 with what I call beginner ZZ (EOLine, F2L, OLL/COLL, PLL/EPLL). However, from what I learnt so far about ZZ-CT and ZZ-a really excited me and I would enjoy diving even deeper into ZZ by learning a new variant.

My “problem” is that I kinda fear learning 200 algs for CT (yeah, you could argue that TSLE is intuitive and CFOP has 80 algs as well, but that still is a lot of work…) and nearly 500 for full ZBLL frustrates me even more. So, it would be ideal if there would be any technique like phasing that would reduce one of both algsets to experiment with the variant.

Therefore, I'd like to hear your advice on what I should learn next, or if it's even worth learning something new at all, since it's hardly going to make me faster.

My current options are:
1. stick with beginner ZZ
2. stick with beginner ZZ, but learn full COLL (currently know H and Pi) or full WV (currently know ~5)
3. learn beginner ZZ-CT
4. learn phasing or something similar + some ZBLLs


What's not an option:
1. Learn full ZBLL
2. Learn full CT

So, feel free to convince me of a ZZ-variant (or maybe a completely different method at all), but please do so as of MY PERSPECTIVE.

Thank you in advance and happy Cubing!
 

AlgoCuber

Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
201
If by beginner you mean OCLL+PLL, yeah that's a good choice.
COLL+EPLL is also a very good option if you don't wanna learn too many algs because EPLL is extremely fast.
Now about Winter+Summer variation. Recog is kind of bad and you don't always insert pairs using R U R' and R U' R'. And then, there's a problem with the algs themselves: Some of them are quite slow, and you'd actually be better off just using OCLL+PLL.

I'm no ZZ expert and I just came back from a 3-month break, so you may want to take this as a grain of salt.
 

Petro Leum

Member
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
800
Location
Germany
WCA
2012KALH01
This comes from my experience, and I hope my experience holds some weight.

Beginner ZZ (EOLine, Blockbuilding or EOCross + Pairs into OCLL, PLL) is definitely good enough to just get sub10, probably even sub8, sub7 if you're really good. But before getting that far, you WILL learn some more algs anyway, because why not?

So I recommend not overthinking it. The best ZZ variant for anything long-term is definitely ZZ-A, but there's no need to rush getting there. Just stick with Beginner ZZ as long as you're not bored with it, then learn COLL, stick with it until bored....

Just go through the stepping stones OCLL/PLL - COLL/EPLL - 2GLL - Phasing/ZZLL - ZBLL.

That way, no alg set is really huge to learn and you'll just gradually progress until you find yourself at full ZBLL before you know it.

Also, WV is not worth it.

Have fun with ZZ! It's so much more interesting than CFOP, lol
 

Lupus3141

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2020
Messages
11
Thank you for your quick answer, I will probably stick with OCLL/PLL and COLL/EPLL for now. Do you recommend learning all subsets of COLL? I've read that e.g. sune and antisune wouldn't be worth it?
Also, how many ZBLLs would remain after phasing? I guess I would insert the last pair in a way that leaves all corners unoriented, so I would only get H and Pi. Or is there a better approach?
 

PiKeeper

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Messages
96
Thank you for your quick answer, I will probably stick with OCLL/PLL and COLL/EPLL for now. Do you recommend learning all subsets of COLL? I've read that e.g. sune and antisune wouldn't be worth it?
Also, how many ZBLLs would remain after phasing? I guess I would insert the last pair in a way that leaves all corners unoriented, so I would only get H and Pi. Or is there a better approach?
Sune and antisune are definitely not worth it for coll, but most other subsets except some h/pi cases are at least comparable to ocll/pll. I would say learn everything except for sune/antisune to get used to cp recog, even if it might make you slightly slower than ocll/pll.
 

Petro Leum

Member
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
800
Location
Germany
WCA
2012KALH01
Thank you for your quick answer, I will probably stick with OCLL/PLL and COLL/EPLL for now. Do you recommend learning all subsets of COLL? I've read that e.g. sune and antisune wouldn't be worth it?
Also, how many ZBLLs would remain after phasing? I guess I would insert the last pair in a way that leaves all corners unoriented, so I would only get H and Pi. Or is there a better approach?
ZZLL is 169 algs, a third of ZBLL. So yeah, the final stretch is pretty long, but you'll see how learning algorithms becomes easier and faster the more you have already memorized.

I agree that Sune/Antisune is not worth it for COLL. However, you will learn the algs at some point anyway, because they are very much worth it for ZBLL.

Aditionally, I recommend learning the ZBLL cases by sets in the final stretch, starting with the sune/antisune cases (especially if you haven't used sune cases in COLL or ZZLL before), because the recognition is more difficult than the rest.

You can definitely do a last slot variant to reduce cases to only H and Pi, but don't underestimate how much time that takes in a solve. Long-Term, just full ZBLL will be better. If anything, I recommend doing "anti-phasing" after learning full ZBLL to force the newly learned algs, and because ZZLL is not the best subset of ZBLL. But it also helps to just take note of the phasing state to ease recognition.
 

tsmosher

Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2020
Messages
649
I agree that Sune/Antisune is not worth it for COLL. However, you will learn the algs at some point anyway, because they are very much worth it for ZBLL.
At least Niklas is worth learning as well.

If anything, I recommend doing "anti-phasing" after learning full ZBLL to force the newly learned algs, and because ZZLL is not the best subset of ZBLL.

I'm not saying you're wrong. From a place of pure naivete, I am just going to ask: What do you base this statement on? (Also, is there a term for the anti-phased subset of ZBLL? How many cases is it? I'm guessing it's the remaining two thirds of ZBLL?)
 

Petro Leum

Member
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
800
Location
Germany
WCA
2012KALH01
At least Niklas is worth learning as well.



I'm not saying you're wrong. From a place of pure naivete, I am just going to ask: What do you base this statement on? (Also, is there a term for the anti-phased subset of ZBLL? How many cases is it? I'm guessing it's the remaining two thirds of ZBLL?)
About Niklas - Yes and no. The moment you start recognising Niklas, it also takes you longer to do a Sune.
I agree there's nothing wrong with learning it, because you will anyway at some point and niklas is really fast, but... technically, if you haven't started doing sune/antisune COLL recognition, just doing Sune for everything IS faster.

About ZZLL/"Anti-ZZLL" : average movecounts (ZZLL average is a bit over ZBLL average) and personal experience with the algs. A lot of the really nice, short ZBLLS are not phased, and quite a few of the really really bad long ones are phased. That's just it. It's not the biggest difference though, and ZZLL is easier to recognize because it's half the cases.
 

OreKehStrah

Member
Joined
May 24, 2019
Messages
710
Something else to think about is just changing your approach to learning algs. I streamlined my alg learning process and now can learn between 24-36 algs in 45-60 minutes and retain them for a few months without drilling them often.

If you are interested in CT, you could learn full TTLL (72 algs) and do DLP, OCLL, TTLL. You can also use this in conjunction with COLL to force a specific TTLL subset, like the 2Gen set for example.

You can also learn ZBLL subsets like tripod, line, 2gll, diag, etc.

If you are 13+, feel free to also join the ZZ users' Discord server!
 
Last edited:

Lupus3141

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2020
Messages
11
Thank you again for all the answers, could @OreKehStrah please provide an invitation link for the discord server? I would really enjoy joining a ZZ community:).

After reading up on phasing, I realized that even the phasing described here would result in too many ZBLLs to begin with. Does anyone know the name of a phasing technique (or maybe could even provide a link with all the algs) where you insert the last pair, while simultaneously unorienting all corners, resulting in H and Pi ZBLL subsets? I suppose this number of algs would be manageable for me to learn.
My (shortterm) goal is just to start learning some ZBLLs, speed is not the focus at the moment because I just enjoy getting PLL skips every single solve sooo much.
 

Petro Leum

Member
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
800
Location
Germany
WCA
2012KALH01
I'm not sure if that's really that worth it. The cool thing about phasing is that it technically costs you 0 moves.
To reduce LL to only H and Pi subsets, you'll need some algs that are longer than the standard inserts.

There's a name for it, but I forgot it. To be fair, you can probably figure it out on your own - most algorithms will just be variants of standard inserts with more sexy moves :D

HF!
 

AlgoCuber

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Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
201
I'm not sure if that's really that worth it. The cool thing about phasing is that it technically costs you 0 moves.
To reduce LL to only H and Pi subsets, you'll need some algs that are longer than the standard inserts.

There's a name for it, but I forgot it. To be fair, you can probably figure it out on your own - most algorithms will just be variants of standard inserts with more sexy moves :D

HF!
The problem with ZZ-blah is that the H and Pi subsets are the most inefficient ZBLL subsets. It is not worth it on its own, but can possibly make the transition to full ZBLL smoother. Maybe ZZ-b with ZZLL would make a better transition?

According to the ZZ site:
"Full ZZ-B with ZZLL: This is where, when you insert last slot you phase the edges. Phasing is a lightweight technique where you solve 2 opposite edges during last layer so you get a reduced algorithm set. ZZLL is the set of algorithms that solve phased LL. There are 169 algorithms for ZZ-B if you do phasing intuitively and 227 if you do it algorithmically. Can be used as a transition to full ZBLL. Using algorithms for phasing is called ZZ-B+."
 
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