# At what point does TPS matter?

#### lerenard

##### Member
At what point does TPS (turns per second) matter? Obviously, if you're solving at 1 TPS you're going to be hard pressed to solve the cube in less than 40 seconds using a traditional speedcubing method, but I see a lot of people who seem to think if they could just turn faster then their 5-second pauses wouldn't matter. So obviously the first thing you want to do is improve lookahead so you don't have as many pauses, but is there a limit to how far lookahead can take you? To test this, I performed the same solve ten times. The first time I got 32 seconds (an average time for me) and then progressively got faster because I knew what to expect. Surprisingly, though, I couldn't get under 20 seconds even though I knew exactly what to do the entire time. So I figured that, for me at least, I spend about 12 seconds pausing over the course of an average solve, and that lookahead could bring me down to about 20 seconds. But there are people who consistently get sub-8 solves and 4.xx singles on scrambles they've never seen before. So is the only thing separating them from the not-quite-sub20 cuber mere TPS? I've watched some of the example solve videos from the best cubers, and I'm basically doing everything they're doing, I just have a lot of pauses.

The conclusion here seems to be that lookahead can take you from 30 to 20 seconds, but that after that you simply have to turn faster to go from 20 to 8. This doesn't seem right to me, though, so I'd like your input.

Thanks

#### Petro Leum

##### Member
i just got to the point where i have many solves where i just dont have any pauses.

and even on those, i cant quite get under 8-9 seconds unless im really lucky

so, it kinda depends on how many tps you have when you eliminate your pauses, but its probably around 10 seconds where tps starts to matter more

#### Musicalboy2

##### Member
I've always concluded the opposite: spamming TPS can get you easily down to around 20, and then working on lookahead can help you go further.

I really might not be fast enough to say, but I feel like trying to get sub 12 is when you start needing to worry about tps, and even then, time might still be better spent on reducing pauses.

#### mDiPalma

##### Member
you're not taking into account all the lookahead that you do WHILE you are turning with less-than-max TPS

#### GuRoux

##### Member
turn speed will gradually get better and better. at around 30 seconds, one of the easiest ways to increase turn speed is to lock up less or tension and lube your cube better.

#### PeelingStickers

##### Member
Probably sub-10. I usually have some small pauses in most of my solves, and average ~14. But I will struggle to break 10 seconds even if I have a pauseless solve, this might be because I am a nub and don't know full OLL.

Learning new algs and good lookahead can probably get you down to ~10 seconds, after that I'd guess it's time to speed up TPS.

#### GuRoux

##### Member
Probably sub-10. I usually have some small pauses in most of my solves, and average ~14. But I will struggle to break 10 seconds even if I have a pauseless solve, this might be because I am a nub and don't know full OLL.

Learning new algs and good lookahead can probably get you down to ~10 seconds, after that I'd guess it's time to speed up TPS.
i think with the tps most sub 10 solvers have, they will be sub 7, maybe sub 6, with perfect lookahead. at least that is how it is for me.

#### Petro Leum

##### Member
i think with the tps most sub 10 solvers have, they will be sub 7, maybe sub 6, with perfect lookahead. at least that is how it is for me.
i feel like i mainly need to improve my tps to get my times lower.... any tips?

#### Petro Leum

##### Member
Drill algs. Lots of them. Get algs that are RUD, RUF, and LUF gen and spam them. That's how I built up my TPS.
so lets say i just wanna improve my [L,U,F], should i drill lefty j-perms and t-perms or something? or is that too specific? those algs dont involve L2s and U2s and stuff like that after all.

also, i did alot of PLL time attack and got it under 30s. btu i feel like that didnt really make my algs faster, i just lock up way less and got better transitions between the algs, which doesnt help me with solving at all...

any tips on that? should i dril levery alg i use until i can do it under a certain time barrier?

Does it help my TPS if i just try to always turn at my maximum TPS when speedsolving?

how much TPS practice do you think is efficient?

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#### confusedcuber

##### Member
I'm definately not fast enough to say in a way..but it appears to me that there isn't a point where your tps ability slows you down, it's always lookahead.

For example, if it's an algorithm, or a solve I've practiced, I can turn 7/8 tps (and others can do much higher), and that's good enough for around 8 seconds. So if someone slow as me can turn fast enough for world class times, how can it not just be a lookahead problem?

#### XTowncuber

##### Member
okso, first of all Remember that TPS is not the same as turn speed. Even if the actual time it takes you to do a single move does not change, your TPS can increase if you pause less. But that's just me being knitpicky, so I'll answer your question now.

For me at least both turn speed and lookahead improved at the same time. It wasn't like I first learned to turn fast and then learned to look ahead, I just worked on them both at the same time. They both matter equally at pretty much all speeds (in my opinion of course).

#### brian724080

##### Member
I've always concluded the opposite: spamming TPS can get you easily down to around 20, and then working on lookahead can help you go further.
I don't think so. The reason people have trouble with sub-20 is because they are spamming TPS, and are not looking-ahead when doing so

#### lerenard

##### Member
okso, first of all Remember that TPS is not the same as turn speed. Even if the actual time it takes you to do a single move does not change, your TPS can increase if you pause less. But that's just me being knitpicky, so I'll answer your question now.

For me at least both turn speed and lookahead improved at the same time. It wasn't like I first learned to turn fast and then learned to look ahead, I just worked on them both at the same time. They both matter equally at pretty much all speeds (in my opinion of course).
Good point, I really meant turning speed, not TPS. The only part of cubing that actually interests me is the puzzle it poses intellectually, which is why I do a lot of untimed solves. In my opinion, the better you know how the cube works, and how to connect pieces and get them where they need to be without disrupting other things the faster you will be naturally. I was just wondering how far pure mental ability and cube knowledge could take you until you simply needed to move your hands more quickly to actually solve it in less time. The general consensus seems to be 10 seconds, and when I started cubing my ultimate goal was just to be sub 20, so that makes me happy. Personally I don't feel like that many people will be significantly more impressed by someone who can solve a cube in 7 seconds rather than 11, and if the difference between those two is just dexterity, I never need to be sub-10.

#### brian724080

##### Member
Good point, I really meant turning speed, not TPS. The only part of cubing that actually interests me is the puzzle it poses intellectually, which is why I do a lot of untimed solves. In my opinion, the better you know how the cube works, and how to connect pieces and get them where they need to be without disrupting other things the faster you will be naturally.
I know someone who does that, and refuses to learn any algorithms. He got stuck on big cube parity

#### NewCuber000

##### Member
I just got sub-20 a couple months ago, and I'm starting to find that my look-ahead is good and all butbut my turning speed needs major improvement, so yes in a way you're right in my opinion. Although, while you're getting a faster turning speed you can't forget about your lookahead. You need a fast turning speed whil still having an extremely good lookahead to get to sub-10, sub-9, 8, etc.

#### lerenard

##### Member
I know someone who does that, and refuses to learn any algorithms. He got stuck on big cube parity
Before I got into speedcubing, I learned about commutators and could solve my brother's 3x3. Then last July I bought a 5x5 just to see if I could solve it without any help, and parity had me stumped for about a week, but I figured it out. My trick was to just move one inner slice a quarter turn, and then solve the displaced center pieces with commutators. The remaining edge pieces can now be solved by commutators! This is obviously a horrifically inefficient way to fix it, which is why we have algorithms. There's a difference between figuring out how to do it yourself, and actually doing it that way consistently because you refuse to do it the way the rest of the community has figured out how to do it through their combined intellects (and the help of computers!) So I will never do intuitive LL as a speedsolving method, even though I'm perfectly capable of it (pre-orient edges, use last slot as a buffer to permute all edges, then solve corners with commutators, aka Heise method) because I can do it in 5-7 seconds using the 28 algs I already know with little effort. It's the F2L that's the fun part.

#### sneaklyfox

##### Member
Turn speed and look ahead should both matter at all speeds, but look ahead matters more because it limits your TPS. Also, a much better look ahead naturally results in greater TPS whereas a much faster turn speed may actually make it harder to improve look ahead.

#### Rocky0701

##### Member
Little girl from Old El Paso commercials: "Why not both?"

Seriously though, you shouldn't spam TPS or turn ridiculously slowly and have incredible look ahead. There does come a point where turn speed holds cubers back though. For example, if I had someone turning speed that is sub 8, I would basically instantly be sub 15, when right now I am about sub 17. TPS and look ahead both come naturally and with a lot of practice.

#### sneaklyfox

##### Member
if I had someone turning speed that is sub 8, I would basically instantly be sub 15, when right now I am about sub 17.
Maybe. But I bet if I had the look ahead of someone who is sub 8, I would basically instantly be sub 12, when right now I am about sub 15. Look ahead wins.

#### cubecraze1

##### Member
The amount of moves you have in each solve needs to also be taken into account. I could have perfect lookahead and good TPS, this means nothing without a decent move count.

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