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2x2 Experts -- Need your help for 3x3!

efattah

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Feb 14, 2016
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2x2 Experts! I need your help with some cube timings. First I will explain what I would appreciate from you, then I will explain why I need it:

1. Randomly scramble five to ten 3x3 cubes
2. Do not inspect the cubes
3. Start your timer
4. Consecutively solve the *corners only* using 2x2 methods, and align the centers, on all the cubes
5. Stop the timer only once all cubes are done

Ideally if you could time 2x2 Ortega, 2x2 CLL and 2x2 Full-EG, on 5-10 consecutive 3x3 cubes (without any chance to inspect each cube), I would be extremely grateful.

I am a competitive freediver and I am training to break the Guinness Record for most 3x3 cubes underwater (current record is 8, I am aiming for 20). I need to average 20 seconds per cube to solve all 20 in less than 7 minutes (I can hold my breath 9 minutes if I am not moving, but cubing takes more energy). I am not a competitive speed cuber. I have been solving corners first since 1981, my recent single solve PB is a meager 19.11, but my average is in the mid 20's, mostly because I cannot turn the cube fast enough.

As I am reasonably close to averaging sub-20, it is faster to optimize my current method than to learn CFOP (I have tried CFOP and I'm deathly slow at it). Currently I solve the corners first with Ortega 2x2 algorithms, then I solve 6 edges using old-school keyhole, and finish with Roux L6E (50-60 moves to solve the whole cube).

The ideal method to solve the corners on any cube is not so obvious if you eliminate the chance to pre-inspect the cube. During a string of underwater solves I cannot inspect each cube as the clock is ticking. Some have argued that CLL is better than EG if you cannot 'see' the whole solve in the inspection.

Another interesting point is the theoretical limit for this method. If you used it in a regular competition (with inspection), you should be able to solve the corners in less than 2 seconds with EG, and several people can do Roux L6E in 2 seconds or less, which leaves just the 6 edges (keyhole). They take about 20 moves, or conservatively 4 seconds at 5 TPS. This would give an average of 8 seconds per cube which isn't bad.

Anyway, if any fast 2x2 solvers could help me out with the 3x3 corners timings, it would be awesome. I realize it may feel weird to use the 2x2 algs on the 3x3; that's okay, your times won't be ideal but it will still give a general idea of the ballpark time of each method. If you only know one of the methods the timing would still be appreciated.

Eric Fattah
 

joshsailscga

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Another interesting point is the theoretical limit for this method. If you used it in a regular competition (with inspection), you should be able to solve the corners in less than 2 seconds with EG, and several people can do Roux L6E in 2 seconds or less, which leaves just the 6 edges (keyhole). They take about 20 moves, or conservatively 4 seconds at 5 TPS. This would give an average of 8 seconds per cube which isn't bad.

I doubt you could even get sub-10 with that, the edges recognition would be absolutely garbage.

For your experiment, do you know all of those alg sets you are talking about? I would think that because you are performing the algs on a 3x3, CLL or EG will not really improve your times over Ortega. If you don't already know the algs, it's not worth the effort to learn them, I would just keep practicing with Ortega.
Good luck with this, though.
 

shadowslice e

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Pls don't do 20 I wanted this record. D:

How do you train to hold your breath for longer btw? I can do about 2-3 minutes from natural breath holding from the competitive swimming I do ( so I reckon I can probably do about 8 on a good day though I've never tried because I don't have enough cubes. maybe I'll try to do bigger cubes at some point though). I was thinking of doing 10 at some point when I get better at 3x3 but I think it would be good to train breath holding as well.

I think you should stick with cubing methods other than CF like Roux or CFOP because they are more ergonomic and the turning is better plus you can look ahead better.
 

G2013

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What I can tell you is that it's harder to recognise 2x2 stuff on 3x3 (at least for me), and since I average sub-3 on 2x2, it would take me about 6-7 seconds to solve corners and align centers on a 3x3. I'll do an ao12 and tell you (since I don't have more than 5 well-working 3x3s :S):

Well, I am slower than I thought. Ao12 of 9.31, best time 6.40, worst time 13.33.
So it would have taken me 111.72 seconds (1 minute and 51.72 seconds) to solve corners and align centers on all 12 cubes (I didn't inspect any of them).
I used EG method.

Anyway I really recommend you learn CFOP, but if you want to stay with corners first, learning EG won't really speed you up a lot, I think. Ortega or CLL are well for this (although EG will help, but not reaaaaally much, and there are lots of algs to learn :/)

I hope that I've helped you with that :) Good luck with the WR!
 

AlphaSheep

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Roux is the natural speed cubing evolution of corners first methods. If you're at all serious about this attempt, you should learn Roux. Start with this playlist. You already know the L6E, so it's just a case of getting used to solving the first 6 edges while solving the corners. CMLL is exactly the same amount of effort as learning CLL for 2x2, and one third of the effort of EG. Don't forget, CLL is part of full EG.

I'm by no means an expert in 2x2. I average around 7 seconds on 2x2 (or 12 without inspection) and around 21 seconds on 3x3 (about 25 without inspection), but I gave it a try anyway, just for fun. I scrambled 10 cubes and timed myself for solving all corners using the Ortega method with no inspection. The final time was 3:28.02, which is an average of 20.8 seconds per cube. Recognition proved the tricky part, because the edges get in the way. I also botched my first attempt (over 5 minutes) because muscle memory from 2x2 refused to work for 3x3. I had to review all my algs a couple times before trying again.

Also, I'd like to point out that the times that 2x2 pros get in your challenge will have zero relevance to you, since they will be teenagers with better dexterity and faster reaction times than you. Secondly, no-one can solve the corners consistently in under 2 seconds without any inspection. Sure there are a handful of cubers who can get sub-2 averages on 2x2, but they make full use of their inspection time. Watch them - they almost all inspect for 8-10 seconds.

That said, I like your ambition. Good luck!
 
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fabdabs1234

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1:27.43 with ten cubes using eg1 and cll ,but if i were you i would honestly learn a better speedsolving method such as CFOP or Roux
 

efattah

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Thanks for all the helpful replies, and thanks for everyone who did timings, all really helpful!

I'll post a video of the record attempt eventually!

Eric
 
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Hello there. I could be of help - I'm not a terribly fast 3x3 solver but my best average of 12 is 14.78.... With CF! How do you solve edges? I don't do waterman - but basically an optimized version of Ortega.
 

qqwref

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I don't recommend a pure corners first solve. The best people (like rachmaninovian above!) end up in the mid-teens, but unless you're willing to put in years of work, you won't get down there. In comparison, the best CFOP and Roux solvers are around 8 seconds or less, so you have much more wiggle room to get fast. If you like corners first and are familiar with Roux L6E, absolutely go for Roux.

9 minutes is a pretty crazy static apnea time, congrats on that! Having 7 minutes to solve cubes in would put you way ahead of everyone else in the running. There are a few people on the forum who have done 12 or so cubes while holding their breath on land (I did 13 for instance), but they only had 3-4 minutes, because as far as I know they're not experienced freedivers :p
 

efattah

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Also just to answer the few people who had question about the breath-holding. I have been freediving for 25 years and coaching for 5 years. Most people can learn to do a motionless breath hold of 5 minutes quite easily (perhaps after 1 month of training). But going over 7 minutes takes years of training. In fact it has been shown that the act of holding your breath 'grows' a certain part of your brain, and this brain 'growth' takes years to complete. Holding your breath the correct way also has been shown to permanently increase your IQ as the carotid arteries expand and increase blood flow to the brain, which is your body's method to 'compensate' for the frequent lack of oxygen.

I also had the privilege of coaching Branko Petrovic of Serbia, who is the current world record holder with an official breath hold of 12:11 (and an unofficial PB of 13:30).


Eric
 

shadowslice e

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Also just to answer the few people who had question about the breath-holding. I have been freediving for 25 years and coaching for 5 years. Most people can learn to do a motionless breath hold of 5 minutes quite easily (perhaps after 1 month of training). But going over 7 minutes takes years of training. In fact it has been shown that the act of holding your breath 'grows' a certain part of your brain, and this brain 'growth' takes years to complete. Holding your breath the correct way also has been shown to permanently increase your IQ as the carotid arteries expand and increase blood flow to the brain, which is your body's method to 'compensate' for the frequent lack of oxygen.

I also had the privilege of coaching Branko Petrovic of Serbia, who is the current world record holder with an official breath hold of 12:11 (and an unofficial PB of 13:30).


Eric

Wow cool. Maybe this seems to also be why swimmers seem to be fairly clever as well (at least where I'm from they seem to have better grades and memories than average people).
 
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