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2 bld in the wca

Mike Hughey

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#5
I feel pretty much the same way other people above me have; the one thing I might like to see (just for the data) is what this event would be like if it properly followed the same rules for BLD as 3BLD (as is supposed to happen with our online weekly competition 2BLD event): start the timer, then remove the cover and start inspection. I would love to see if it's actually possible for people to get results like the ones we've often seen in the weekly competition. Somehow I suspect we'd see a lot fewer sub-3 and sub-4 solves in WCA competition than we've been seeing in the online weekly competition. Although I guess with the nod-don that has become so popular, it might be more possible than I think. Anyway it would be nice to run the experiment, even if only as a non-official event, just to see how fast people can really do all of that (inspection, donning the blindfold, solving).
 
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The FitnessGram Pacer Test is a multi stage...
#6
I feel pretty much the same way other people above me have; the one thing I might like to see (just for the data) is what this event would be like if it properly followed the same rules for BLD as 3BLD (as is supposed to happen with our online weekly competition 2BLD event): start the timer, then remove the cover and start inspection. I would love to see if it's actually possible for people to get results like the ones we've often seen in the weekly competition. Somehow I suspect we'd see a lot fewer sub-3 and sub-4 solves in WCA competition than we've been seeing in the online weekly competition. Although I guess with the nod-don that has become so popular, it might be more possible than I think. Anyway it would be nice to run the experiment, even if only as a non-official event, just to see how fast people can really do all of that (inspection, donning the blindfold, solving).
I have to add that I agree with you, a lot more really fast solves that we see in weekly comp would go away.
 
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#7
What I'd love to see is 2x2 Multiblind! Seeing just how many 2x2's world-class BLD solvers could do in an hour would be super cool.
 
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#8
Another thing with nod-donning the blindfold or just pulling the blindfold down in general, it's really hard to make sure that it's all the way down/get the divider between the solver's eyeline and the cube. Cheating would be really quick.
In Jack's recent BLD solve videos, the judge *waits* a second or two before using the divider. A 2x2 solve could be done completely before the blocker is in and, as mentioned above, it would be really hard to make sure that the blindfold was all the way on.
 
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#9
Another thing with nod-donning the blindfold or just pulling the blindfold down in general, it's really hard to make sure that it's all the way down/get the divider between the solver's eyeline and the cube. Cheating would be really quick.
In Jack's recent BLD solve videos, the judge *waits* a second or two before using the divider. A 2x2 solve could be done completely before the blocker is in and, as mentioned above, it would be really hard to make sure that the blindfold was all the way on.
The judge has to wait until the person starts turning, so yeah, that might be an issue.

Not that this should be an event anyway.
 

Mike Hughey

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#10
Another thing with nod-donning the blindfold or just pulling the blindfold down in general, it's really hard to make sure that it's all the way down/get the divider between the solver's eyeline and the cube. Cheating would be really quick.
In Jack's recent BLD solve videos, the judge *waits* a second or two before using the divider. A 2x2 solve could be done completely before the blocker is in and, as mentioned above, it would be really hard to make sure that the blindfold was all the way on.
This is a really good point. This would amount to a situation very similar to that of judging for Magic and Master Magic; if we were to add the event, there's a good chance it would just be discontinued shortly thereafter for similar reasons to the main reason that Magic and Master Magic were dropped: inconsistency in judging. A judge for 2BLD would need to be really excellent at the job in order for the result to be trustworthy.

There are probably ways to solve the problem, using fancier blinding equipment which the competitor has to put in place themselves before starting to make moves, but that would probably make the event cost-prohibitive to hold. While it is an interesting thought experiment, it seems unlikely 2BLD could ever be a practical official competition event.
 
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#11
This is a really good point. This would amount to a situation very similar to that of judging for Magic and Master Magic; if we were to add the event, there's a good chance it would just be discontinued shortly thereafter for similar reasons to the main reason that Magic and Master Magic were dropped: inconsistency in judging. A judge for 2BLD would need to be really excellent at the job in order for the result to be trustworthy.

There are probably ways to solve the problem, using fancier blinding equipment which the competitor has to put in place themselves before starting to make moves, but that would probably make the event cost-prohibitive to hold. While it is an interesting thought experiment, it seems unlikely 2BLD could ever be a practical official competition event.
Good point... lol, they would finish the solve before th judge uses the blinding equipment...
 

Mike Hughey

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#13
After watching Stanley Chapel's 1:10 4BLD attempt, it becomes quite clear that, for any WR attempt at 2BLD with current rules, it is unlikely that the judge would be able to get the divider in place before the 2BLD solve is already complete. For Stanley's attempt, it took the judge well over 2 seconds to put the divider in place; world-class solves would already be done by then.
 
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#14
After watching Stanley Chapel's 1:10 4BLD attempt, it becomes quite clear that, for any WR attempt at 2BLD with current rules, it is unlikely that the judge would be able to get the divider in place before the 2BLD solve is already complete. For Stanley's attempt, it took the judge well over 2 seconds to put the divider in place; world-class solves would already be done by then.
you do have a point
 

mark49152

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#17
There is virtually no difference between 2BLD and 2x2 at the highest level.
The main difference would be that with 2BLD, memo would be included in the time, whereas in 2x2 it is done during inspection. Plus, the competitor must lift the cover and don the blindfold, which at the highest level will take significant time and lead to more reliance on tricks like nod-don.

I would expect the normal BLD approach to give fast memo and longer execution, whereas 2x2 one-looking would give faster execution but probably longer memo. It would be interesting to see how techniques develop to speed up inspection for one-looking, and whether different or hybrid methods emerge.

Nevertheless, IMHO it wouldn't make a good WCA event, for the various reasons already mentioned in this thread. I also think that if there were genuine interest in developing 2BLD among experienced BLDers, there would have been more discussion of specific methods and techniques, and I don't recall seeing much if any discussion on that. I suspect it will be seen primarily as a "beginner BLD" event, leading to a mixture of very slow and ridiculously fast competitors, and making holding the event officially even more challenging.
 
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#18
I would expect the normal BLD approach to give fast memo and longer execution, whereas 2x2 one-looking would give faster execution but probably longer memo. It would be interesting to see how techniques develop to speed up inspection for one-looking, and whether different or hybrid methods emerge.
World class 2x2 solvers can 1-look a solution at least as fast as it takes world class blders to memo. Conventional bld methods are objectively garbage for 2bld. They have no advantage over speedsolving methods.
 

mark49152

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#19
World class 2x2 solvers can 1-look a solution at least as fast as it takes world class blders to memo.
I'd guess that a world class BLDer could orient and memo 2BLD in 2-3 seconds. I have no idea how many world class 2x2 solvers are capable of pushing their inspection to the 2-3 second range, but with today's 15 second inspection they don't have to, so I would further guess that many of them have not really tried.

Conventional bld methods are objectively garbage for 2bld. They have no advantage over speedsolving methods.
BLD execution would of course be way less efficient so if a 2x2 solver really can memo as fast as a BLDer then obviously they have the advantage.

Anyway, it wasn't my point to speculate which approach would be fastest at the top level, only to contrast the approaches. I think many regular competitors would approach 2BLD with conventional BLD methods, at least initially. OP/OP is objectively worse than 3-style and Ortega/Varasano is objectively worse than CLL/EG, but many competitors still use them.
 
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#20
I'd guess that a world class BLDer could orient and memo 2BLD in 2-3 seconds. I have no idea how many world class 2x2 solvers are capable of pushing their inspection to the 2-3 second range, but with today's 15 second inspection they don't have to, so I would further guess that many of them have not really tried.
You do know that they spend their inspection looking for the fastest solution instead of checking the first one and going with it, right?
 
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