# [Help Thread]ZZ method / EOLine Discussion

#### ChaosWZ

##### Member
Please use this thread to post questions related to the ZZ method.

Here is the ZZ/ZB method discussion thread.

-*-*-*-*-

I'm trying to get sub-20
I really need to improve my efficiency to do that, so I figure you guys could see what I'm doing wrong here.
I used to solve with Fridrich and it shows in my attempt at block building.

Scramble: L' D2 R D2 R2 U D F2 L F2 D' R L' U2 B2 R' U' R' D U' F2 U2 L2 R' B'

27 Seconds

EOLine : B' D' L' D
Left Side : R' U' R U' R' U' R U' L R' U2 (End of First 2x2x1) L R' U' R U R U R2 U L
Right Side : U' R' U' R U2 R' U R2
WV : U R' U R U' R' U R U R' U' R U R' U R
PLL : U' R U R' y' R2 u' R U' R' U R' u R2 U

Total : 64 moves, horrible for an efficient method I know.

I still have trouble with EO line, that one was just absurdly easy and my block building is really inefficient.

Any tips anyone?

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#### mDiPalma

##### Member
B' D' L' D - your eoline
U' R L U2 R' U' R' - right square
L' U2 L2 U' L U' L' U' L' - left block
U' R' U' R U2 R' U' R - right block
U R U2 R' U' R U' R' - OLL
R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R U' R U R' F' U' - PLL
~50 moves, no rotations

try and use non-fridrich-style-pairs.

also, coll >> wv.

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Thanks so much

#### a small kitten

##### Member
This scramble is a bit lol. Got an 8.11 with the following solution:

B' D' L' D
R' U2 R2 U L' U2 L'
U L' U2 L U L' U' L
U R U2 R' U R U2 R U2 R' U R
R U R' U R U2 R'
U R U' R U R U R U' R' U' R2

#### mDiPalma

##### Member
ChaosWZ: 13 U, 11 U', 2 U2
mdipalma: 3 U, 14 U', 4 U2
a small kitten: 11 U, 4 U', 6 U2

i just noticed how much "style" has to do with it.

plus i just realised i could have cut off 7 moves in my OLL+PLL because there is a HUGE cancellation.

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#### a small kitten

##### Member
What do you mean when you say "style"?

There could have been a small cancellation in my solve too but I didn't recognize it :S

#### ChaosWZ

##### Member
This scramble is a bit lol. Got an 8.11 with the following solution:

B' D' L' D
R' U2 R2 U L' U2 L'
U L' U2 L U L' U' L
U R U2 R' U R U2 R U2 R' U R
R U R' U R U2 R'
U R U' R U R U R U' R' U' R2
It's from cube timer. And solving something 4 times faster than me makes me feel bad =/ I know I'm not good but this is ridiculous!

#### mDiPalma

##### Member
by style, i mean that we all saw different solutions from the same scramble+eoline

subconsciously, i do inserts that use U' much more often (evident from all my reconstructions)
it seems you may have a slight bias for U.
and chaoswz is either still developing his style or treats U + U' more equally than us.

#### ChaosWZ

##### Member
I definitely see no difference between U' and U, it's a flick with my right index or my left index. It's hardly any different. I tend to refrain from using U2 because I'm slow doing U'2 when I can't always use U2 efficiently.

#### mDiPalma

##### Member
lol, maybe the sample size is too small for you two, but i definitely use U' more than U

also there is the fact that chaoswz went for the back left square with a d-edge pair,
you went for the same square with an f2l pair,
and i went for a different square entirely.

this variation could be caused by our color scheme, the way we hold the cube, the lighting, or (more likely) our styles/habits/tendencies

obviously most styles will yield the same approximate movecount in the end, but maybe different styles may help in other ways.

maybe, for example, having an equal number of (U + L) and (U' + L') and minimal (U2 + L2) would be the best for OH (with z rotations)

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#### a small kitten

##### Member
Actually, your preference for U or U' in OH depends on which hand you use. If you use left, it is much easier to do U'. U2/U'2 aren't very good.

I hate U so much that I learn PLLs from multiple angles so I don't have to AUF with U.

#### Phantom777

##### Member
I can't understand the Edge Orientation+Line on ZZ

I am Sub30 with CFOP method , and my AO5 is 27.79 . With CFOP I'm stuck . I need another method to make a speedsolve . ZZ is the closest method to CFOP speed . I do not understand the first step of ZZ , the orientation of edges. I do not understand when you say : see stickers U, D , whatever.

It's the part I do not understand . I do not understand the part of orienting edges when there are 2 , 4 or 6 misoriented edges. Is there a simpler way to understand that?

#### AlphaSheep

##### Member
I was averaging about 2 minutes when I learned ZZ. I didn't find it easy to understand at first either, and it's difficult to explain except in terms of the rules that asmallkitten gives in his videos, or the ones on Conrad Rider's website.

When I was learning ZZ and trying to understand EO, I just scrambled the cube, counted bad edges, and then check my count by solving F2L using only <RULD> moves, without bothering to do EO first. By doing that, you land up with all of the edges that were bad being flipped in place, while the ones that were good will be solved. It's easier to check that you were counting correctly that way. Write down which edges were bad, and check that you got them right. It's best to use computer generated scrambles, because then you can do the same scramble and see where you went wrong.

In terms of actually doing the EO step, I found it was easier to just flip 2 or 4 edges at a time at first, rather than trying to plan a short and efficient EO. Once you've got a solid grasp of EO, then you can read Conrad Rider's EO strategy, and work on getting efficient.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that you'll get stuck at certain times no matter what method you use. In my experience, the only way to get past it is to just keep practising.

#### 00

##### Member
oriented = solvable with R, U, L and D moves.

#### Devin Palacios

##### Member
Zz method eoline help

I have been using zz method for a while now and I have been having some problems with the eoline. With the eoline presolved I get times anywhere from 19 to 28 seconds (depending on how f2l goes) without the eoline it adds about 5-15 seconds
I was wondering if anyone can help. the scramble below will be done wca orientation and the moves in parentheses are my eoline

U F B' L2 B L F2 D' F2 U2 L D2 L R2 F2 D L2 R2 D' B2 U R' D' L' D' (z2 U' L2 B U' R2 D')

Any tips?

#### MM99

##### Member
That solution is fine Id do something similar except with blue front yellow top... You should post a few more scrambles and more difficult ones as well one Example isn't enough to help you

#### Lazy Einstein

##### Alg Ninja
I have been using zz method for a while now and I have been having some problems with the eoline. With the eoline presolved I get times anywhere from 19 to 28 seconds (depending on how f2l goes) without the eoline it adds about 5-15 seconds
I was wondering if anyone can help. the scramble below will be done wca orientation and the moves in parentheses are my eoline

U F B' L2 B L F2 D' F2 U2 L D2 L R2 F2 D L2 R2 D' B2 U R' D' L' D' (z2 U' L2 B U' R2 D)FTFY

Any tips?
So why does that EOline take you 5-15 seconds to solve?
Did you plan it in inspection? If so, that is exceptional you have a good EOline and it sounds like you have a TPS problem.
If you aren't planning that in inspection, that is your problem and you need to start practicing that asap.

Example of an EOline I would do and it took me about 10 seconds to plan: z2 U D2 R2' F D' B2

#### Devin Palacios

##### Member
So why does that EOline take you 5-15 seconds to solve?
Did you plan it in inspection? If so, that is exceptional you have a good EOline and it sounds like you have a TPS problem.
If you aren't planning that in inspection, that is your problem and you need to start practicing that asap.

Example of an EOline I would do and it took me about 10 seconds to plan: z2 U D2 R2' F D' B2
I am planning during inspection I know exactly what I need to do but I just forget it all when I start. It takes me about 5-10 seconds to plan the eoline depending on the number of bad edges.