ZZ Cubers

[Stefan]

i would put up both of the tables comparing the two in face turn metric

(table)
is the first, from cubezone.be, on the cross, with quarter turn metric

Epic.

 

[Escher]

well. before this i had not had the experience of being fully pochmann-owned.

ouch.

lol, ill change that then

wait - how was i utterly failing in the reply to bamman? i realise that saying 'if we are going to be accurate' was wrong, because i was lying, but the 'discrepancy' between me saying face turn metric and quarter turn metric came in a later post. you only explained/demonstrated the second failing, not the first. unless ive already answered it for myself here...

 

[Stefan]

That 'discrepancy' was already there, in the numbers you provided. The "utter" stems from you making that mistake while boldly being like "Let's do this the right way, shall we?".

Btw, at first I wasn't sure the EOLine stats were HTM. Can you tell how to tell they are?

 

[JohnnyA]

I don't think one or even two moves between the cross and eoline average will make a significant difference, especially since you can plan the entire step in inspection. What I was thinking was that in many cases, having 10 or 12 edges misoriented makes an easy eoline because often you can use one F or B turn and get rid of four, without having to worry about those 4 edges any more. Sometimes I have had both the F and B layers full of misoriented edges after scrambling and I can get rid of all eight edges with just a slice turn.

 

[Matthew]

Btw, at first I wasn't sure the EOLine stats were HTM. Can you tell how to tell they are?

EOLine stats are in the HTM

I don't think one or even two moves between the cross and eoline average will make a significant difference, especially since you can plan the entire step in inspection. What I was thinking was that in many cases, having 10 or 12 edges misoriented makes an easy eoline because often you can use one F or B turn and get rid of four, without having to worry about those 4 edges any more. Sometimes I have had both the F and B layers full of misoriented edges after scrambling and I can get rid of all eight edges with just a slice turn.

Yes - but cross also has easier and more difficult cases..

I don't think that difference between cross and eoline is significant.. key for this is practise - after one year i average with eoline about 2.5s - in neaxt 'season' i'm going to go with this to around 2s - but IMO it is a down-limit...

Key for almost everything is prety F2L in ~30 moves and quickly recognition in LL case in my opinion..

 

[JohnnyA]

Matthew could you post up an average? I want to see really fast ZZ solves ;P and an explanation of basic block building would help us people still using 3gen fridrich.

 

[Escher]

That 'discrepancy' was already there, in the numbers you provided. The "utter" stems from you making that mistake while boldly being like "Let's do this the right way, shall we?".

Btw, at first I wasn't sure the EOLine stats were HTM. Can you tell how to tell they are?

fair enough, i did deserve that.

and no, im not sure. i have an idea but its probably wrong... how can you tell?

 

[Stefan]

I don't think one or even two moves between the cross and eoline average will make a significant difference

Little in execution time, but perhaps more in look-ahead difficulty.

Btw, at first I wasn't sure the EOLine stats were HTM. Can you tell how to tell they are?

EOLine stats are in the HTM

I know. That was not the question.
Btw, I'm interested in the QTM statistic for EOLine. I could imagine this being not much more, since most of the time double turns don't help.

Btw, at first I wasn't sure the EOLine stats were HTM. Can you tell how to tell they are?

and no, im not sure. i have an idea but its probably wrong... how can you tell?

What's that idea?
And a hint: Have a close look at the numbers in the "no. of moves for EOLine" table.

 

[Escher]

What's that idea?
And a hint: Have a close look at the numbers in the "no. of moves for EOLine" table.

they are all odd numbers?

 

[Stefan]

they are all odd numbers?

Hmm, interesting. Though not really directly helpful, I think. But I'm curious about this nevertheless...
Have a look at one particular number in that table.

 

[Escher]

the fact that there is only one 9 move case/one move case?

 

[blah]

- to those who get 8 or 10 misoriented edges, why not just do a y/y'?

This not solve completely our problem (edges orientation) - in some cases this can be helpful but in some.. this can disturb.. and we have only 15s preinspection

Exactly.

 

[blah]

they are all odd numbers?

Hmm, interesting. Though not really directly helpful, I think. But I'm curious about this nevertheless...
Have a look at one particular number in that table.

1:9, the 9 solutions are [ F ], [ B ] and [ D ], where [ X ] denotes X, X' and X2. (Simple enough, because doing R, U and L moves won't flip any edges, nor will it put DF/DB in place.)

If it were in QTM, there'd only be 6 1-move solutions.

That's probably not the answer you're looking for, but it still shows that the figures are in HTM nevertheless

 

[Stefan]

Yes, what blah said is what I meant. Except [noparse][[/noparse]B] instead of (ah, he fixed it by now, but differently than I did).
Now, who can explain the all-odd numbers, and who can show QTM distribution and average for EOLine?

 

[Escher]

- to those who get 8 or 10 misoriented edges, why not just do a y/y'?

This not solve completely our problem (edges orientation) - in some cases this can be helpful but in some.. this can disturb.. and we have only 15s preinspection

Exactly.

but it only takes a second to tell whether 8/12 are correct or incorrect...

 

[Stefan]

Oh and I'd also be interested in the distribution and average for "EOLine ignoring LL edge orientations". Has this been considered already? If so, what are the results of it?

 

[blah]

Yes, what blah said is what I meant. Except [noparse][[/noparse]B] instead of (ah, he fixed it by now, but differently than I did).
Now, who can explain the all-odd numbers, and who can show QTM distribution and average for EOLine?

I actually wanted to ask you how you un-un-capitalized the B, but I'm staring at the answer right now, so never mind

About your two other questions, do you have the answers yourself? Just wondering

but it only takes a second to tell whether 8/12 are correct or incorrect...

Not me, I just started ZZ yesterday Besides, what if you do y/y' and still get 8 or 10 bad edges? I'd just get p***ed and resort to normal Fridrich

Edit:

Oh and I'd also be interested in the distribution and average for "EOLine ignoring LL edge orientations". Has this been considered already? If so, what are the results of it?

!!! I've just been experimenting with that this afternoon! But I realized something after a few tries: If you start with 0 oriented U edges, you end with that, and that's not nice, unless you know stuff like CLLEF of course

 

[Stefan]

About your two other questions, do you have the answers yourself? Just wondering

No I don't.

If you start with 0 oriented U edges, you end with that

Are you sure?

 

[Escher]

Not me, I just started ZZ yesterday Besides, what if you do y/y' and still get 8 or 10 bad edges? I'd just get p***ed and resort to normal Fridrich

that cant really happen... i think.

you are essentially choosing the better of two evils. if you count 8 bad edges, straight away you can do a y or y', and are faced with the 4 good ones you left now being bad.

the way i recognise 8 so quickly is by looking at the yellow/white stickers first - they are easy to see. i know that any white or yellow sticker on a L or R 'slice' is correct, and any white or yellow sticker on the U or D faces is correct. a white or yellow sticker on an F, R, L or B face is bad.
recognition for the 4 E slice edges takes a bit longer, i dont really have a method for that.

 

[Stefan]

if you count 8 bad edges, straight away you can do a y or y', and are faced with the 4 good ones you left now being bad.

You might want to double-check that...