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ZZ-CT Thread

Discussion in 'How-to's, Guides, etc.' started by 4Chan, Jun 18, 2016.

  1. 4Chan

    4Chan Premium Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    EDIT (6-20-2016): Updated first post

    Welcome to the ZZ-CT thread!

    My original post with my first public debut is here, you'll find a lot of the information regarding the method there.

    In this thread, you'll find general information and a beginner's guide, as well as my opinions regarding the method. I'm still developing it, and things are subject to change, but you'll be able to see and judge for yourself!

    Should you learn ZZ-CT?
    First ask yourself some questions:

    Are you good at ZZ?
    Are you a busy individual who lacks spare time?
    Are you feelin' lucky, punk? (Do you want sick single times?)

    If you answered yes to the above questions and you want the next step up from standard ZZ and are willing to put in the work, then ZZ-CT is for you.

    If you have hundreds of hours to burn and like to learn algorithms, go with ZZ-A (ZBLL). ZZ-A ONLY works if you are dedicated. If you take half-measures, then just forget about it, you'll never become fast with it, and that's coming from years of experience.

    So where should you start?
    The first thing is learning TSLE. This is honestly the hardest, and most frustrating step. It took me two weeks to learn basic TSLE, and over a month to get them into muscle memory.

    I suggest learning all of the 1 corner cases first, because you can easily reduce any case down to one corner intuitively. Then learn the two corner cases, three corner cases, and finally the four corner cases.

    This is because any of the 3 or 4 corner cases can quickly be reduced down to a 1-2 corner case with R U R' or R' U' R' or R U2 R'.

    Don't be afraid to push your limits.
    You might stop at 10 algs per day because you think that's all you can humanly do. Those numbers are completely arbitrary, I'll tell you right now that if you truly wanted to, if you had to save your own life, you could probably learn this method in a few days. Just count to yourself how many breaks you're taking. What is the ratio of time spent between drilling algs and doing non-constructive things?

    The best habit when it comes to learning algorithms is to push yourself and really make an effort.

    As for TTLL, you should be able to memorise it in a few days. Since a lot of the algorithms are so easy, and a few of them are super short. My opinion is that TTLL is even easier than COLL because so many of the algs are related to eachother, and a bunch of them are conjugated PLLs.

    Here's some TSLE tricks and advice!

    So for TSLE, I put them into a few categories:

    1. Obvious/Irreducible Cases
    For a LOT of TSLE cases, the goal is to do some number of triggers to reduce the case into an irreducible case. Mr colourful pockets once made an analogy relating it to sq-1 cubeshape. You do moves and slices to reduce the case into a cubeshape case that you know, except instead of a slice move and things, you do a trigger. ezpz
    Example: R U R'

    2. Insert + Sune
    A BUNCH of cases are optimally solved by simply inserting and doing a sune. also ezpz.
    Example: (R U' R') + U' + (R' U' R U' R' U2 R)

    3. Sune + Insert
    It's like the earlier case, but backwards.
    Example: R' U2 R U R' U R + U2 + R U R'

    4. Pretend you're doing the F2L case.
    So for a LOT OF THESE cases, it's the same alg as the F2L case. The strength behind TSLE is that you get to reuse a lot of F2L algs and you don't have to learn anything new.
    This might be confusing, but let's try some examples.

    Set up the case with U2 L U' R F2 D2 R D2 F2 R' U F2 L' F2
    Just pretend that you're going to make the F2L pair with the corner in FDR. Even though that's obviously not the corresponding corner, just pretend that it is, and do U' R U' R' to make the fake pair. Now insert it with U R U' R'. Wow, everything's oriented!
    If that didn't make sense, do R U R' U' R U R' to set up the same case, observe the orientation of the corners, make the F2L pair and insert it.

    5. WV Cases
    You probably know some WV. Some of those WV cases are still pretty darn good.
    Example: R2 D R' U' R D' R2

    6. Reflectional Cases
    When the edge is already placed, you can mirror those cases, but like, the mirror plane is um, diagonal? So you have to rotate and do the case on the left side. This isn't good in the long term, but when you're learning, it's okay as a stepping stone.
    Examples: R U' R' U2 R U' R' and y L' U L U2 L' U L

    7. Cases that could be done with triggers, but are better off with an alg.

    I know it sucks, but sometimes you just gotta learn the alg. It's better that way.
    Examples: U2 R U2 R' U' R U' R' U R U' R' is better as R' D' r U2 r' D R

    Other advice and tips:

    Forcing PLL:
    So like, you can also learn easy and fast alternate cases to force PLL to happen, so you can predict things better. Since you know it's PLL, you can mentally prepare yourself to recognise it.

    In this respect, TSLE is also a stepping stone to ZZ-C. However, my personal opinion is that ZZ-C has a LOT OF garbage cases, and TTLL is better. Only using obvious and fast alternate cases is worth it.

    For example, these are my favourite to force a skip, because with the latter two, I have an extra split second to think about the case because they start the same way. They're also all decently fast and easy to recognise. Do the inverse to see the case and try it out!

    U' R U2 R' U2 R U2 R' (When the bad corner is in the back left)
    U' R' F' R U R U R' F (When you don't see the bad corner)
    U' R' F R U R U' R' F' (When there's a pair)

    For rotationally symmetric cases, you can force the skip most of the time.
    Whenever the 4 misoriented comes up, it's an 80% chance PLL. You just have to put the bad edge in the right place.
    Example: R U' R' U' R U' R' U R U2 R'
    Do the inverse, and see that like, no matter how many U moves you do, it's still the same orientation. That means if you put the bad corner in the back right position and do the alg, you'll always get OLL skip. If you put it in any other position, you'll get a TTLL.

    Another example: R U2 R' U R U R'
    This case is U2 rotationally symmetric. So that means you have double the chance for PLL. If the bad corner is misoriented, put it in back right (SAME AS EARLIER CASE), and then do the alg, you'll get PLL instead of TTLL.

    Finally, some opinions:

    I think that doing TSLE in one slot is better than being slot neutral.
    You can train your brain to ignore the pieces in your slot while you blockbuild, and keep rotations to an absolute minimum. (No more than 1 rotation per solve)

    However, with slot neutral TSLE, even though you may save 3-5 moves, there's a chance you'll have to do a rotation or ADF. With extra rotations and ADF, you'll introduce pauses and extra looks that puts you behind. I think that avoiding extra looks and rotations is worth 3-5 moves every 15% of the time.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
    Colton, Runnerboy1008, JTay and 10 others like this.
  2. Is there no replies? Im learning this.
    phamtuanktdt and Jrahmah like this.
  3. @Shiv3r wern't you the one that was so hyped about learning ece/abc/adams-briggs/psuedo SSC? What happened there?
    Don't get me wrong, I'm learning this too, I love ZZ and I think this has great potential.
    But why not ece anymore?
    phamtuanktdt likes this.
  4. sqAree

    sqAree Member

    Jun 10, 2015
    Maybe he just wants to learn many methods? It's definitely a fun thing to do. :D
    phamtuanktdt likes this.
  5. 4Chan

    4Chan Premium Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Oh hay, this thread got bumped.

    There was some cool advice I wanted to share, but I forgot it.
    For the time being, I got this average on video last month, it includes a sub-9 single.
    This method has a lot of potential! My best average of 12 is high 12, and my best average of 500 is like, 14 something.

    Runnerboy1008 and phamtuanktdt like this.
  6. There hasn't been any developments with ECE recently.
    also, I have never gotten sub-30 with ECE, which I have wih ZZ-CT(insert edge, orient corners, triple sledge insert corner, PLL), the 4LLS(4look last steps) version.
    phamtuanktdt likes this.
  7. what cube is that?
    I can definitely see this method being sub-9 consistently, given the short pauses during ZZF2L and the slow EOline(eoline is hard to get fast, I know, dont be hard on yourself)

    Is it just me, or do you solve white on front?
    that seems super wierd, but theres probably a reason behind it, so I wont judge
    phamtuanktdt likes this.
  8. Why do there have to be any developments with a method to use it? If it has been proven to be sub-10 or whatever, and you can't get sub-10 with it, that doesn't mean its not worth it.
    The lowest I ever got with cfop was around 20s. And cfop was developed way before I started cubing. Just because I never got sub-15 with it and that it was completed a while ago doesn't mean that I should stop using it.
    And if you don't think ECE isn't worth it, why do you still claim its "the future of speedcubing"? in you sig?
    And if a method is fully developed, why would it need more developments? Does ECE need more developmets, and if it does, why don't you work on them yourself if you feel the method is so good?
    phamtuanktdt and stoic like this.
  9. 4Chan

    4Chan Premium Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Umm, my problem is blocks, not EOLine.

    I appreciate criticism when it's valid, but seeing EOLine is easy peasy, and your comment, "I know, don't be hard on yourself" is REALLY condescending.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  10. @4Chan , green bottom y2 colour neutral, right?
    phamtuanktdt likes this.
  11. 4Chan

    4Chan Premium Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Yep! You got it!
  12. I apologize, Im not trying to be mean or anything.
  13. Should this be FDR?
    kinda confusing when I first read the post.
    4Chan likes this.
  14. "nd if you don't think ECE isn't worth it, why do you still claim its "the future of speedcubing"? in you sig?"
    because I havent gotten around to it yet. I probably should, huh?
    EDIT: I did. sorry for the miscommunication.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  15. wir3sandfir3s

    wir3sandfir3s Member

    Mar 24, 2016
    Under the hanging piano.
    Not A Cuber
    Racing someone to learn this method. Are gyroninja'is Algs any good? TTLL Algs seem a bit long.
  16. AlphaSheep

    AlphaSheep Member

    Nov 11, 2014
    Gauteng, South Africa
    My comps are out of the way, and I won't have another for a couple of months. I've started learning TSLE. I've been trying to start organising the cases and figuring out a structured order in which to learn them. I like to learn cases in groups by concepts (e.g. if the case has x characteristic, then insert to setup sune) rather than brute force memorisation. This is the order I've been working on so far:

    Obviously, most people already know the 7 OCLLs (although you can learn shorter algs that don't preserve DFR).

    The logical next step is the three basic insertions, followed by the easy to recognise no twisted corner case: (R U' R') U2 (R U R').

    Then there are the 2 trigger cases - 24 of them, but you'll already know three of them, so it's actually only 21 new cases.

    There are 13 cases that can be reduced to Sune/Antisune with an 3 move insert, and 10 which reduce to a 3 move insert by doing Sune/Antisune first.

    Thats the first 55 cases without even having to learn any actual algs - just recognition.

    Of the remaining 45 cases, all but 4 can be reduced to one of the above with just a 3 move insert. I'm busy trying to figure out rules to know which insertion and AUF to use without brute force memorisation, but have not yet spent that much time on it.
  17. 4Chan

    4Chan Premium Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    I think that's a much better way of how I did it originally!

    Mister Colourful Pockets has a VERY interesting and good way of simplifying the cases.

    Y'know how in square-1, you do a slice and some move on U and D, and turn it into an irreducible form to get a cube shape?

    He has them arranged so that there are cases that you do a trigger on, and it leads to a "simpler" case, and then another trigger to bring to an irreducible case. (I hope that makes sense, I'm bad at wording things!)

    One piece of advice I can give to everyone is that like, when I was learning TSLE, I just scrambled 2-gen, and solved it from there. That way, I learned to ignore the corner in FDR when making blocks, and it was quick to get to LS.
  18. AlphaSheep

    AlphaSheep Member

    Nov 11, 2014
    Gauteng, South Africa
    It's really just a minor reordering of what you had in your original post. ;)

    The funny thing is that as a beginner I used to have the bad habit of always solving F2L in a fixed order. It's surprisingly easy to move back into the habit of leaving DFR for last.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
    4Chan likes this.
  19. Isaac VM

    Isaac VM Member

    Jul 5, 2015
    Querétaro, México.
    I also use Green/blue on bottom Yellow/ white on front, It's just an orientation.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  20. it would be interesting using japanese/old color scheme to solve ZZ, recognition might be good.
    I think interesting color orientations have benefits, like gilles roux's yellow/white on left/right because it means finding the blocks faster.

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