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New 2015 WCA Regulations (Effective July 1, 2015)

(X)

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#21
I see that what we're really debating, and what we really need to debate, is whether or not these changes give unfair advantages to a cuber. ...
I disagree. I think a very important decision is if we want to move away from the idea/definition of the Rubik's cube, the way it was originally made.

The question of unfair advantages is completely irrelevant, of course there are no unfair advantages when everyone has the same equipement available.
 
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#22
I disagree. I think a very important decision is if we want to move away from the idea/definition of the Rubik's cube, the way it was originally made.

The question of unfair advantages is completely irrelevant, of course there are no unfair advantages when everyone has the same equipement available.
Well, we first have to answer the question as to whether or not it is fair to allow competitors to move away from the definition of the original Rubik's cube. You already have, but some others have not yet. Once that question is answered, then we can decide whether or not we want to move away from that original definition. If it's fair, then the answer is yes, if it's not, then the answer is no.
 

Kit Clement

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Thread starter #23
Just for arguments sake (don't take it too seriously): the meaning of liberal in this case would be: not many restrictions. This was the case. Not many variants were illegal and certainly no variants everyone would like to use or variants cubers have been using in comps already. Then transparent cubes showed up. Not many people owned them, nor did people favor them a lot. If I recall correctly Ron decided they were not OK. After than nothing much happened until 2014.
Ah, I forgot about transparent cubes. But yes, I would agree with that - before stickerless puzzles, the regulations were often more forgiving than restricting.
 

Dene

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#24
It is true that football is very conservative game BUT

http://www.soccerballworld.com/images/HISTORY%20WORLD%20CUP%20BALLS%203.jpg

You can clearly see some development has clearly happened. And if you have played football yourself you know that also the performance of the ball has changed quite a bit and not just the looks of it.
Other than the pictures on the ball, the design has barely changed at all. The only one that was really different was the jabulani, and there was so much complaining about that ball, FIFA would never go back to it.

Also these 2 shoes are clearly very different by design:
Ok I'll give you the shoes but at least they don't have rocket boosters :p

Also new goal line technology in this world cup....
This is why I deliberately said playable technology. This is obviously completely irrelevant and incomparable.
 
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#27
In my opinion this whole problem comes down to the question, Is it necessary to compromise the integrity of speedcubing by deviating from the original idea of the Rubiks cube to make the sport/ regulations more beginner-friendly.
How is it that the change provided by these stickerless cubes is "deviating from the original idea of the Rubiks cube", while every other change between the original Rubik's cubes and today's cubes is not? Or are you actually already opposed to modern speedcubes as it is? I'll just hope that isn't the case.

Is significantly different piece design that allows the cubes to be turned much faster not deviating from the original idea?
Are torpedoes not deviating from the original idea?
Are the different colored plastics and possible alternatives to stickers currently allowed by the regulations not deviating from the original idea?

I've seen you try to make this point before, and I want to see exactly how you define "the original idea of the Rubik's cube" in your mind such that colored plastic being visible on the inside of a puzzle is a deviation from the original idea, while every other difference is not, including those that clearly make it much easier for cubers to get much faster times without increased effort.
 
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#28
I feel like a different approach to this whole situation could just be to well-define what a rubik's cube is (and the other puzzles that make up WCA events). The purpose of competing is to see how quickly you can solve a rubik's cube. The specific one you have shouldn't make a difference in the eyes of the competition, as long as it matches the definition of the puzzle. Is the puzzle defined as having uniform color plastic with colored stickers on it, or is it defined to have perfectly flat sides? If there is a definition, it would be easy to see what fits and what doesn't.

Although once you start deciding on a definition, those questions would have to be answered, so the issues at hand wouldn't necessarily become any easier.
 
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#29
2015 Puzzle Regulations

The major hang up on allowing these changes is that they deviate from Erno Rubik's original design, however he wasn't designing it with solving speed in mind.

My personal opinion is hardware should be allowed as long as the difficultly of the challenge to solve the puzzle doesn't change.

Edit - just a hypothetical, if the 4x4 was originally made just like modern stickerless cubes would we allow stickerless puzzles for 4x4 but not 3x3? Same goes for tiles and pillowed.
 
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#30
The thing about this is that with pillowed cubes they slow you down. The change in times from the V-Cube 7 to Shengshou shows proof of this.

Also I think extra thick tiles provide more of an advantage than stickerless cubes. Since you don't need to rotate the cube at all to see what the sticker colour is on the left and right hand side of the cube.
 

(X)

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#32
The major hang up on allowing these changes is that they deviate from Erno Rubik's original design, however he wasn't designing it with solving speed in mind.

My personal opinion is hardware should be allowed as long as the difficultly of the challenge to solve the puzzle doesn't change.

Edit - just a hypothetical, if the 4x4 was originally made just like modern stickerless cubes would we allow stickerless puzzles for 4x4 but not 3x3? Same goes for tiles and pillowed.
I partly agree. I think allowing stickerless cubes, as they are made today, allows for easier speedsolving of the puzzle.
 
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#33
So what is "fair"?
No cube is unfair as long as everyone is allowed the same cube.

Chess...football...cycling...
I'm definitely going to agree with whoever comes up with the best analogy*
*no, I'm not
Although this is stated a bit harsh, I do agree with the message. Analogies have been brought up a 100 times already and dont contribute anything to the discussion. The issues are quite clear. So far, any analogy that has been brought up is only confusing and cluttering. Lets stick to what Kit actually wanted to discuss.

I disagree. I think a very important decision is if we want to move away from the idea/definition of the Rubik's cube, the way it was originally made.

The question of unfair advantages is completely irrelevant, of course there are no unfair advantages when everyone has the same equipement available.
The original Rubiks cube was made from wood and had cut-off corners. Stuff like transparent cubes or stickerless cubes were just technologically not possible back then, or just too expensive. If you ask Ernö he would not recognize GuHongs or type Fs to be Rubiks cubes, because they are just a copy. Same goes for cubes with a different colour scheme.
So the orignal design is not the best way to go IF you want to work from a "definition" point of view. The regs already allow cubes deviating from this original cube. While it certainly would be a solution to work with such a "definition" I fear it will be a complicated, hard to understand piece of high-level English which most likely will not cover all unwanted variants (unless it is a very open describtion). Not sure if that would be the way to go.
 

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#34
Fair enough, maybe I was a bit too sarcastic.
But in all seriousness, the use of analogies in this thread hasn't enhanced my understanding of the issues being discussed.
Maybe it's a personal thing, but I find analogies very useful. At the very least, the way I feel best to approach things in general is: We don't have to reinvent the wheel, as people have done that before us. It's much simpler to look at what others do and see what works.

I feel like a different approach to this whole situation could just be to well-define what a rubik's cube is (and the other puzzles that make up WCA events). The purpose of competing is to see how quickly you can solve a rubik's cube. The specific one you have shouldn't make a difference in the eyes of the competition, as long as it matches the definition of the puzzle. Is the puzzle defined as having uniform color plastic with colored stickers on it, or is it defined to have perfectly flat sides? If there is a definition, it would be easy to see what fits and what doesn't.

Although once you start deciding on a definition, those questions would have to be answered, so the issues at hand wouldn't necessarily become any easier.
I see you think like I do. Originally I brought up this approach with the WRC and delegates, but it wasn't viewed particularly popularly at the time. Regardless I did the work to come up with a definition and resulting regulations. I was planning on getting around to posting it on here at some stage but never got around to it. I'll see what I can do in the next week or two (so busy atm).
 

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#35
The original Rubiks cube was made from wood and had cut-off corners. Stuff like transparent cubes or stickerless cubes were just technologically not possible back then, or just too expensive. If you ask Ernö he would not recognize GuHongs or type Fs to be Rubiks cubes, because they are just a copy. Same goes for cubes with a different colour scheme.
So the orignal design is not the best way to go IF you want to work from a "definition" point of view. The regs already allow cubes deviating from this original cube. While it certainly would be a solution to work with such a "definition" I fear it will be a complicated, hard to understand piece of high-level English which most likely will not cover all unwanted variants (unless it is a very open describtion). Not sure if that would be the way to go.
Yeah, but stickerless cubes have visual differences from all other cubes allowed until now, and I think they should be put in a separate category.

The argument of "We should make theses changes that can have an impact on our sport because it will make the regulations easier to understand." is just really bad IMO.
 
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#36
Yeah, but stickerless cubes have visual differences from all other cubes allowed until now, and I think they should be put in a separate category.

The argument of "We should make theses changes that can have an impact on our sport because it will make the regulations easier to understand." is just really bad IMO.
Yes, just like a cube with round stickers, purple plastic or cut off corners like the original cube... what is your point?

Please rewrite the argument and also explain WHY you think it is bad, I don`t understand what you mean (nor can I check if that is actually what I said)
 

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#37
While it certainly would be a solution to work with such a "definition" I fear it will be a complicated, hard to understand piece of high-level English which most likely will not cover all unwanted variants (unless it is a very open describtion). Not sure if that would be the way to go.
I interpreted this as something along the lines of :
"We should make these changes that can have an impact on our sport because it will make the regulations easier to understand."
Is that not what you meant?

When it comes to the idea of a Rubik's cube I think you are nitpicking.

http://rubik.storflor.com/logo/kube2.jpg

This is what a Rubiks cube looks like.

This is what most people in the world would point at if asked to point at a Rubik's cube.

I think we should allow all puzzles that do not give any visual advantages over this cube.

Suggestion: This could possibly be something to use in the regulations, show a picture of a Rubik's cube and say that any cube that don't give any visual advantages is allowed.
 
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#38
Suggestion: This could possibly be something to use in the regulations, show a picture of a Rubik's cube and say that any cube that don't give any visual advantages is allowed.
I can see the colors of the stickers on BUL, BU and BUR if I tilt my Weilong with standard stickers just enough so I can't see the whole back face. Is that a visual advantage?

(My point is you did not define visual advantage, therefor your suggestion can't be used.)
 
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#40
I interpreted this as something along the lines of :
"We should make these changes that can have an impact on our sport because it will make the regulations easier to understand."
Is that not what you meant?

When it comes to the idea of a Rubik's cube I think you are nitpicking.
I am not sure if I understand what you mean, but I will give it a go: Because I said "working with a definition is possible, but may be challenging/difficult/not optimal because of X and Y" you assume this is the reason I want stickerless cubes to be allowed?

If that is the case you completely misunderstand.

I just put the rest in a spoiler here, because this has been cluttering this thread too much already... this is after all almost a PM.

For starters because allowing stickerless cubes and working with a "definition" are two completely different issues. Working with a definition does not automatically mean we would allow or ban stickerless cubes, that just depends on the definition... It would only be a tool/instrument we could use to explain what variants are OK and which are not OK. The discussion about what in fact is OK still has to be made. Also: like I said before, I fear a definition would be long and complex. If you have a solution/alterative to that, please share! (not ment sarcastically)

I posted my reasons for allowing stickerless cubes several times here in a very elaborate way, maybe you are interested in reading them?

What do you mean with nitpicking? I never told you my own definition of a Rubiks cube. With some examples I just made clear that although it may seem obvious to you what the "original Rubik`s Cube" is, the issue is a bit more complex than that.

Also: I am curious what "impact" you mean? Do you think people will suddenly be faster on stickerless cubes? And if that is the case:
1. Why do you expect that?
2. Why would it be a bad thing?
 
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