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Knock-Off vs Real Puzzles: A Suggestion

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ChrisBird

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Hey Everyone,
Before I start I would just like to say I searched the forums, and found no stickies about buying Knock-off vs Real Cubes, but if I missed something I apologize in advance.

On topic, A thread was recently started called "Transparent Void Cube" and in that thread a user tried to convince people how it was 'ok' to buy knock off puzzles.

Now I believe, as most of you probably do, that buying knock-off puzzles is bad and not something an honest person would do. As it is not supporting the original inventor. I think we need to make a sticky thread about knock offs, and place it possibly in the hardware section talking about why it is not honest to buy knock off cubes. And how to tell if a cube is real or a knock off.

I of course, will use the example of V-Cubes to illustrate my opinion.

To make it simple, there are real V-Cubes made by V-Cubes company invented by Mr. Verdes, and there are knock-offs, made by someone else who ripped off the product, and is selling it for their own gain (while I know there are multiple such sellers I will group them into one)

Now the V-Cube 6 is sold for $33.56 not including shipping on the genuine site, and the knock offs sell for as little as 20$ (ebay and such).

If you buy from V-Cubes.com, while you are paying more for the cube, you are doing more then that. You are supporting the inventor of the puzzle, and the factory that makes them. What will this do? It will allow them to continue production of the puzzles, and put more time and money into the creation of new ones. Paying extra is like saying "Thank you for this new puzzle, and the time you put into making it."

Now on the other hand, if you buy a knock-off V-Cube, not only are you saying that the original inventors time and effort is worthless, and that you won't pay him for his work, you are also saying that you don't care about the time that was put into it, the money they put into it, or the law itself. You are basically slapping Mr. Verdes in the face saying "silly man, I can get your puzzle over here for cheaper."
After you do this, is Mr. Verdes likely to make more V-Cubes? (2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11 etc) No he isn't, why? Because he is not being given the credit he deserves, and he does not have the money he needs to continue doing it.

In conclusion, we need to make sure everyone knows (as Sandy has done on the TwistyPuzzle Forums with his sticky) that buying knock-offs is selfish, dishonest, and wrong.

No one is perfect, and people may have accidentally bought knock-offs of cubes on accident, but it needs to be known to look before you buy, and to support the original inventor of a puzzle, and not someone trying to sell it for his own gain.
 
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masterofthebass

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I think the main problem with the non v-cube knockoffs being 'allowed' is the fact that you can't go to voidcube.com and buy one. Its actually pretty hard to get any of these puzzles, where the knockoffs are widely available. I would much rather buy a real puzzle, but if its for an exorbitant price due to limited availability, I really can't justify it. If the inventor wanted to have people buy his puzzles, he would spend the money to make them more widely available.
 

ChrisBird

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I think the main problem with the non v-cube knockoffs being 'allowed' is the fact that you can't go to voidcube.com and buy one. Its actually pretty hard to get any of these puzzles, where the knockoffs are widely available. I would much rather buy a real puzzle, but if its for an exorbitant price due to limited availability, I really can't justify it. If the inventor wanted to have people buy his puzzles, he would spend the money to make them more widely available.

Yes, I should have made it more clear that I was referring to puzzles that can be easily obtained both real and knock off, and that just because one is cheaper does not make it right to buy that one.

The only thing I am unsure about is puzzles like a teraminx.

Say the original inventor had a patent on it, but sold them hand made for $2000, and then someone made a knock off of it with no permission from the inventor, since the $2000 puzzle is not easily available to most people, would that make it alright to buy the cheap knock-off teraminx?
 

shelley

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What about the plain old 3x3? Aren't all those Chinese DIYs knockoffs? Yet we're totally fine with people buying them over the official Rubik's brand.
 

brunson

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I'm not sure of the patent status on the Void Cube knock offs, but any discussion of a patent infringing knockoff of the V-cube will be deleted.

This is not discussion of the knockoffs, this is discussion about the discussion. Meta discussion, if you will. :)

What about the plain old 3x3? Aren't all those Chinese DIYs knockoffs? Yet we're totally fine with people buying them over the official Rubik's brand.

The patent has expired.
 

piemaster

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Wouldn't it make sense for the rubik's company to renew them? Do they not have enough money?
 

ChrisBird

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brunson: Don't you think it would be a good idea to have a stickied thread (written by someone who can adequately explain the problem [not me]) posted in the Hardware section somewhere so that people will know the forums policy on knock-offs?
 

brunson

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bwatkins

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we need to make sure everyone knows (as Sandy has done on the TwistyPuzzle Forums with his sticky) that buying knock-offs is selfish, dishonest, and wrong.

I believe this is a very bold statement you are making. I totally support Mr. Verdes, and original inventors, and will not buy a knock-off but i believe others have circumstances that overtake this. For example, many of the users on this forum are of young age, and thus are unemployed, or have very low paying / low hour jobs. With the cost of puzzles these days, some people have to make a opportunity cost decision. It's purely an economic purchase decision, as is the the decision to create the puzzles in the first place.

I've read countless threads where users are debating between multiple puzzles to buy because they cant afford both / or many. there are comments all over about "waiting till Christmas to get the V-cube" etc. The monetary factor is most likely the driving factor in which puzzle young (or even old well-paid job) users decide with. Because of this, a sticky would be nice, but if it's purpose is to discourage users, i believe it will fail (hopefully not), but unless we all end up with some extra cash somehow...which we are definitely not, in fact with the current economy status all of our bank accounts are going down...so in the end, even though morals are involved, money will most likely be the deciding factor on original Vs. knock-off
 

brunson

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we need to make sure everyone knows (as Sandy has done on the TwistyPuzzle Forums with his sticky) that buying knock-offs is selfish, dishonest, and wrong.

I believe this is a very bold statement you are making. I totally support Mr. Verdes, and original inventors, and will not buy a knock-off but i believe others have circumstances that overtake this. For example, many of the users on this forum are of young age, and thus are unemployed, or have very low paying / low hour jobs. With the cost of puzzles these days, some people have to make a opportunity cost decision. It's purely an economic purchase decision, as is the the decision to create the puzzles in the first place.

I've read countless threads where users are debating between multiple puzzles to buy because they cant afford both / or many. there are comments all over about "waiting till Christmas to get the V-cube" etc. The monetary factor is most likely the driving factor in which puzzle young (or even old well-paid job) users decide with. Because of this, a sticky would be nice, but if it's purpose is to discourage users, i believe it will fail (hopefully not), but unless we all end up with some extra cash somehow...which we are definitely not, in fact with the current economy status all of our bank accounts are going down...so in the end, even though morals are involved, money will most likely be the deciding factor on original Vs. knock-off
You're right.

And if they're really, really broke they should just steal them because their need to own a toy is far more important than the livelihood and just reward of an innovative inventor or the personal property of others.
 

amostay2004

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You guys might find a quote by Sive from Mindstrat Puzzles interesting (we had a discussion at the MalaysianCube forum a while ago)

siva said:
Dear All
I would request everyone to support a campaign of not buying fake products.
I have seen many fake Rubik 360 magics floating around in the market. Mainly from Action Toys and other retail outlets.
Yes, Rubik 360 does not have patent protection and so technically it can be copied and sold. But we belong to the puzzle forum. Yes, I am aware that it is very hard to ask general mass market to stop buying fake products. But Puzzle forum are those places where puzzle enthusiasts, inventors, developers, speed solvers meet and exchange innovative ideas.
I believe that as a member belong to puzzle forum we should never encourage fake products.
Just imagine if the Great Erno Rubik, 30years ago did not want to release CUBE or did not want to show to the world, the very forum where we all are exchaging our ideas and topics would not exist.
There is no bigger insult that we all are doing for that great man buy discussing or promoting fake 360 Rubik products.
What saddens me is that the product was supposed to be released in August but because of many fakes they have pre-launched the product.
I am not going to argue whether this is right or wrong and there is nothing wrong in copying the products. I am just suggesting that this forum where we call CUBE forum and which has originated because of love of Erno's Cube should not support or encourage fake 360.

I have seen similary people buying fake V-CUBES in this region. I have tried to stop where ever possible. But I am not big enough to catch everyone.
Yet, I have not stopped trying.
I am not sure on how many of have had a chance to meet the Great Verdes. But I will tell you all, I really had the honour of meeting the Great Verdes himself. I have never seen any more humble person than Verdes. I could see the pain the truama, the struggle he has gone through in developing V-CUBES. i could see the joy and pleasure in his eyes when I mentioned lot of people like V-CUBES. That joy and pleasure is what ever inventor would like to hear about.
Now imagine how hurt he will be when he seeks many fake V-CUBEs being sold in the market. I believe these great puzzle inventors will be more upset when they come to know that puzzle forums also discuss fake products and forum puzzlers buy and sell fake products.

I joined one more great Inventor Mr. Pantazis Houlis to promote and bring lot of new and great puzzles in the world. We will try to create many new puzzles. We at the same time also want to promote original product/puzzle purchase campaign.
We want to create puzzles so that many kids and adults will enjoy games
We want to create and develop puzzles so that we can contribute something back to society.
We will be doing our efforts.
Already many forums like Twisty Puzzle forum, Singapore Puzzle Forum and other forums are taking stance of not supporting fake products. I am sure malaysian Cube Forum also will take similar stance.
I am sorry if I have hurted anyone intentionally.
Please feel free to contact me or visit our website @www.mindstratpuzzles.com
Regards
Siva

As for me, I don't go against people buying knock-offs as it all boils down to consumer choice. We buy what we think is of value to our money and as for the inventors, it is their job to find ways to counter competition. The most efficient market is always the free market :D
 

daeyoungyoon

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Let people do whatever they want. It's their money that they are spending and usually knock offs are worse than the original(I think) so they are just wasting money.

And if some knock offs were better than the original puzzles, I really doubt that most people won't buy them just because they are "knock-offs"

I mean if they came out with bigcubes that are much better than the v-cubes would you seriously not consider buying them at all? We all know its wrong but I don't think that is going to stop anyone from buying knockoffs anytime soon.
 

bwatkins

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we need to make sure everyone knows (as Sandy has done on the TwistyPuzzle Forums with his sticky) that buying knock-offs is selfish, dishonest, and wrong.

I believe this is a very bold statement you are making. I totally support Mr. Verdes, and original inventors, and will not buy a knock-off but i believe others have circumstances that overtake this. For example, many of the users on this forum are of young age, and thus are unemployed, or have very low paying / low hour jobs. With the cost of puzzles these days, some people have to make a opportunity cost decision. It's purely an economic purchase decision, as is the the decision to create the puzzles in the first place.

I've read countless threads where users are debating between multiple puzzles to buy because they cant afford both / or many. there are comments all over about "waiting till Christmas to get the V-cube" etc. The monetary factor is most likely the driving factor in which puzzle young (or even old well-paid job) users decide with. Because of this, a sticky would be nice, but if it's purpose is to discourage users, i believe it will fail (hopefully not), but unless we all end up with some extra cash somehow...which we are definitely not, in fact with the current economy status all of our bank accounts are going down...so in the end, even though morals are involved, money will most likely be the deciding factor on original Vs. knock-off
You're right.

And if they're really, really broke they should just steal them because their need to own a toy is far more important than the livelihood and just reward of an innovative inventor or the personal property of others.

I appreciate the sarcasm.


I'm not saying it's right, its just the way things are. Think about in simple terms...there are LUCKY CHARMS, and then there are MARSHMALLOW MATEYS. The later is obviously a knock-off, however cheaper and more economically sound...there is a reason these products exist. And for every product on sale, there is a knock-off, and chances are we use them every day without the thought you provided (in bold). It may not be right, but it happens every day millions of times outside the cube-solving community...it's just a fact and it seems worth mentioning.
 
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At a competition, I saw someone with a knock-off V-cube 7. Because the patent hasn't expired I believe that gives me the right to say they're involved in illegal activity :eek:. Am I right? Or am I right?
 

Bomber

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I think the main problem with the non v-cube knockoffs being 'allowed' is the fact that you can't go to voidcube.com and buy one. Its actually pretty hard to get any of these puzzles, where the knockoffs are widely available. I would much rather buy a real puzzle, but if its for an exorbitant price due to limited availability, I really can't justify it. If the inventor wanted to have people buy his puzzles, he would spend the money to make them more widely available.

Yes, I should have made it more clear that I was referring to puzzles that can be easily obtained both real and knock off, and that just because one is cheaper does not make it right to buy that one.

The only thing I am unsure about is puzzles like a teraminx.

Say the original inventor had a patent on it, but sold them hand made for $2000, and then someone made a knock off of it with no permission from the inventor, since the $2000 puzzle is not easily available to most people, would that make it alright to buy the cheap knock-off teraminx?

MonkeyDude I seriously hope you are not referring to me. At no point did I ever try to convince anyone that buying copied cubes was totally acceptable. My opinion was confined to one thread, my opinion applied to a void cube. How could you possibly blow this up into proportions where you might as well make me out into a person who recommends buying fake, YJ V Cubes?

I will happily use Dan's example of not being able to even search for a genuine Void Cube and have one instantly available to you. In the aforementioned Void Cube thread I almost posted a reply to you, agreeing with you that it was unacceptable to buy knock-offs on a scale to V-Cubes.

I have not spent a penny of my own money on any copied cubes, unlike you. That is my opinion. I am 'innocent', not a solitary pound that I have earned has entered the possession of one of these Chinese Criminals. You can sit on your high horse with your 'no fakes' attitude but at least I have upheld it.

Now please, admit who this anonymous 'user' was that has convinced everyone that they should spend their hard earned money on fake cubes. I think it is only fair that you should name the user that you could accuse such a thing as this thread when that user is highly likely to be me.
 
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