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Human Thistlethwaite Help/Discussion

Kirjava

Colourful
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snkenjoi
#41
yeah, the ending is my fastest part, human kociemba helps too

I think my biggest problem is with EO efficiency and corners in general

you'll see why I'm going for speed soon enough :)
 
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miotatsu
#46
update on my progress with AHTA:
So I have been busy learning the corner cases and have decided to learn only a subset of them. normally using the parity+EPOCBL system there would be 63 (49 EPOCBL, 7 normal OCLL, same 7 but on D) cases after parity. I figure a cube rotation wouldn't hurt since it drops the alg count to 35. Counting mirrors as the same case drops the count down to 28. also if we sacrifice a couple moves the cases u/u, t/u, and t/t can all be set up as H and Pi cases which brings the count down to 25. other cases could potentially reduce to a single case as well but they aren't worth it imo because of extra moves and harder recognition.
subtracting the 6 ocll cases (antisune counted as mirror) that most cubers already know this results in 19 unique cases that need to be learned and this system still provides very nice CO for speed. I will list the algs I am going to personally use below.

(top/bottom):(alg) (mirror?) (if I have learned this case yet or not)

sune/sune: R' U' R' U R U2 D R' D' R (yes) (yes)
anti/sune: R' U' R U2 R (U' D) R2 U R' (yes) (yes)
H/sune: U' R (U' D) M2 U' r2 U R' (yes) (yes)
U/sune: R' U2 R' U D R2 U2 R' U' R (yes) (yes)
T/sune: L D' L' U' r2 U2 L' U' L' (yes) (yes)
L/sune: R D r2 R' U R U2 r2 R' (yes) (yes)
Pi/sune: L U D L' U D2 L' U2 D L' (yes) (yes)

H/H: R2 (U' D) L (U D') M2 (U D') L (no) (yes)
U/H: R D R' U D2 l2 U2 R' U' R' (no) (yes)
T/H: L D L' U' D2 r2 U2 L' U' L' (no) (yes)
L/H: L U' L2 R2 U' L' l2 D U2 L (no) (no)
Pi/H: R' U' L2 U R2 (U' D) r2 R' (U' D) R' (no) (yes)

L/U: D' L' U' L' U2 L U' L (no) (no)
Pi/U: L' U R U2 R' U L R U R' (no) (no)

L/T: U R U D2 R' U' D2 R' (no) (no)
Pi/T: L' U' L l2 U' l2 U' L' U2 L (no) (no)

L/L: L U' D' L U D L' (no) (yes)
Pi/L: L' U' L2 U' L' U2 D' L2 U' L' (no) (no)

Pi/Pi: L U D L' U2 D2 L U D L' (no) (yes)


also does anyone have some advice for the final stage? with belt solved there are only 8 edges needing to be permuted and all M edges are in M and S edges in S so I am guessing it would be very doable to generate algs for all the cases but idk. right now I can usually get this stage done in 1 or 2 algs but it isn't too rare for me to run into a situation where I need to use 3, I feel like this is the worst part of my solve right now besides corners.
 
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miotatsu
#47
I have switched from doing Fix bad edges + permute edges to roux style lse. I find speed solutions of this type to be around 50 moves or so. execution for eo, the belt, and the final stage are all trivial. I have high hopes that it will be possible to get very fast execution of the corner solving. Also I am not sure if I have mentioned this, but you can recognize the corner permutation case from the front and right side of the cube only, which is useful for speed as well.
 
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Cubenovice

Forever Slow
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#48
FMC round 382
R2 F' B' D B D B' D' L2 R' F R2 F' B L' F2 B U2 D2 R' L2 B2 D' R' U' F U F' D2 B2

Human Thistlethwaite
F B' L' B' – orient edges
U' D2 R' U2 D2 R - orient all but 2 corners
R’ F L F’ R F L’ F’ – corner cycle instead of the typical HTA two corner swap
D L2 – separate corners
B2 D' B2 D2 . R2 D' R2 D2 – pair up corners
D' U2 R' L B2 F2 L' R D' – leaves 2+2 edge
At . insert edge swap D2 L2 D2 : L2 D2 L2 to cancel 2 moves

Now replace the initial corner cycle by insertion : to cancel two additional moves:
At : insert D R’ D’ L2 D R’ D’ L2 to cancel 4 moves

Final:
F B' L' B' U' D2 R' U2 D2 R D L2 B2 D' B2 L2 D' R' D' L2 D R D L2 R2 D' R2 D U2 R' L B2 F2 L' R D' = 36 HTM, 30 STM
 

Cubenovice

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#49
New PB

speedcubers.de
scramble 2 of week 2012-12
B2 D2 R D2 B2 U2 F2 U2 L B2 L2 D R2 B' R' U' B2 R' B2 L

R L2 B' - edge orientation
L U2 R' - place U/D edges
R' D L2 D' R' - corner orientation
D L2 U2 D' R2 - separate corners note the extra moves
R' F R' B2 R F' R' B2 R2 - pair up corners with A-perm
note that there are no bad edges
R2 F2 R2 F2 R2 F2- solve 2 edges and line up two for swapping
F2 B2 U2 F2 B2 - solve edges
U F2 U' D R2 U' - done

but why would I bother lining up faces for an edge cycle?
last line is much better as F2 U' D R2 in which the F2 cancels out

this makes 32 HTM:
R L2 B' L U2 R2 D L2 D' R' D L2 U2 D' R F R' B2 R F' R' B2 F2 R2 F2 R2 B2 U2 B2 U' D . R2

now take out the A-perm and insert D B2 D' F2 D B2 D' F2 at . to cancel 1 additional move for final solution:
R L2 B' L U2 R2 D L2 D' R' D L2 U2 D' F2 R2 F2 R2 B2 U2 B2 U' D2 B2 D' F2 D B2 D' F2 R2 = 31 HTM
 
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1982RAZO01
#50
New PB

speedcubers.de
scramble 2 of week 2012-12
B2 D2 R D2 B2 U2 F2 U2 L B2 L2 D R2 B' R' U' B2 R' B2 L

R L2 B' - edge orientation
L U2 R' - place U/D edges
R' D L2 D' R' - corner orientation
D L2 U2 D' R2 - separate corners note the extra moves
R' F R' B2 R F' R' B2 R2 - pair up corners with A-perm
note that there are no bad edges
R2 F2 R2 F2 R2 F2- solve 2 edges and line up two for swapping
F2 B2 U2 F2 B2 - solve edges
U F2 U' D R2 U' - done

but why would I bother lining up faces for an edge cycle?
last line is much better as F2 U' D R2 in which the F2 cancels out

this makes 32 HTM:
R L2 B' L U2 R2 D L2 D' R' D L2 U2 D' R F R' B2 R F' R' B2 F2 R2 F2 R2 B2 U2 B2 U' D . R2

now take out the A-perm and insert D B2 D' F2 D B2 D' F2 at . to cancel 1 additional move for final solution:
R L2 B' L U2 R2 D L2 D' R' D L2 U2 D' F2 R2 F2 R2 B2 U2 B2 U' D2 B2 D' F2 D B2 D' F2 R2 = 31 HTM
Impressive!

And thanx for your recent explanation on how human thistlethwaite works
 

Cubenovice

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#51
I just realised I never posted my Human Thistlethwaite FMC PB in this thread.
It floats around in the FMC thread but there I have a hard time of finding it back.

So here goes:

Scramble 1 of the speedcubers.de weekly competition (somewhere back in 2012....)

scramble
R2 B2 L2 D B2 R2 D B2 L2 B2 D2 F' R U2 B' U F' R F' U' F' U'

inverse
U F U F R' F U' B U2 R' F D2 B2 L2 B2 D' R2 B2 D' L2 B2 R2


F' B' - Edge orientation
switch to inverse with premoves F B
. L' R D R' U2 D L' D L : - Corner orientation
U' L2 - corner cycle would pair up corners (solve with random commutator, insert cycle later)
D' F2 B2 - bring corners to correct layer, leaves edge cycle and edge 2+2 swap
F B - undo premoves at this stage cancels 2 moves

insertions:
. pair swap U2 L2 U2 L2 U2 L2 cancel 1 move
: edge cycle L2 + U' D F2 D' U cancel 3 moves
+ corner cycle L2 U' R2 U L2 U' R2 U cancel 3 moves

final solution for inverse scramble
U2 L2 U2 L2 U2 L R D R' U2 D L' D L U' R2 U L2 U' R2 D F2 D' L2 D' F' B'

for regular scramble:
B F D L2 D F2 D' R2 U L2 U' R2 U L' D' L D' U2 R D' R' L' U2 L2 U2 L2 U2 = 27 HTM
 
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Jayceeblaster
#52
I'm curious, and couldn't find anything from a basic search.

Is there a list of corner orientation algorithms for HTA? I believe Cubenovice called it "edge-friendly Guimond algs".

I realize there are some algs on Page 4 of this thread, but it doesn't cover all cases, just those that are OLL algs for both faces (Sune, AS, Pi, etc)
 
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Renslay
#53
I realize there are some algs on Page 4 of this thread, but it doesn't cover all cases, just those that are OLL algs for both faces (Sune, AS, Pi, etc)
Well, if you have other case, then do a quick orientation parity fix:
R U' L2 U R'
(turns DFL ccw and UFR cw)

or:
L D' R2 D L'
(turns DFL cw and UFR ccw)

It is just 5 moves, so probably doesn't worth the effort to learn another dozens of algorithms for those cases.
 
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#57
Okay, now I'm having trouble with the permute edges part. Does anyone have algs?
Copy and paste the algorithms here to see what they do.

I do EP slice by slice, unless I see a shortcut. For a single slice, there are 5 cases:

case 1: the slice is one edge swap away from solved. alg: R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 (which swaps two edges in another slice as well, because a single edge swap isn't possible)
case 2: 3-cycle of edges: M U2 M' U2 or M' U2 M U2
case 3: 2 adjacent edge swaps: M2 U2 M2 U2
case 4: 2 diagonal edge swaps: do a conjugated case 3, for example F2 (U2 M2 U2 M2) F2
case 5: 4-cycle of edges:
U2 L2 D' U' F2 D' U' R2 (clockwise 4 cycle in E layer, also swaps two edges in D layer)
D2 L2 U D F2 D U R2 (clockwise 4 cycle in E layer, also swaps two edges in U layer)
for counterclockwise 4 cycles do the inverse algorithms.

The 4-cycles are obviously best avoided. They are quite ugly algorithms, but I honestly couldn't find anything better. When you have solved two complete slices, then the last slice can neither have 4-cycles nor a single edge swap.

As for the shortcuts: they are mostly conjugated versions of the algorithms above. The type of conjugated algorithms I use most often look something like this:
U R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U
F2 U R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U F2
L2 U R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U L2
F2 R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 F2

Other algorithms I don't find that useful for speedsolving, but which are nice to know for fmc:
E2 M2 S2
U2 M2 D2 S2
U2 M2 S2 D2
E2 M' S2 M
F2 U2 M2 D2 F2
 
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#58
The 4-cycles are obviously best avoided. They are quite ugly algorithms, but I honestly couldn't find anything better.
R2 (U u) R2 (U u) R2 u2 and the mirror.

e: Actually, the M-slice version of this seems to be better in terms of execution: U2 (R r) U2 (R r) U2 r2.
 
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