# [Help Thread]Hoya Discussion

#### Nilsibert

##### Member
The reason I'm making this thread is because there has not been much discussion about Hoya(or not that I'm aware of), both for 4x4 and for 5x5.

Explanation videos

Aaron LoPrete:

4x4 Hoya Method Explanation

5x5 Hoya Method Explanation

Hoya Method on 4x4 and 5x5

MarcelP:

HoYa Method explaining

Cross Edges

Chree:

Hoya Cross Edge Tips and Tricks

More Hoya Tips and Tricks

Even More Hoya Tricks - Dedges in U Layer

Nilsibert:

4x4 Hoya Cross edge tips and tricks

Hoya Cross: Awesome Solution For "The Long Insert"

Collection of Cross Edge Cases by dbax0999

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#### Clarkeeyyy

##### Member
I use hoya for both 4x4 and 5x5 and I'm not particularly fast. One of my favourite things about hoya is the fluid transitions between each step. I noticed when using yau that my solves felt very jittery, especially during the "last cross edge" stage, something in which I have never felt with hoya.

#### Nilsibert

##### Member
I use hoya for both 4x4 and 5x5 and I'm not particularly fast. One of my favourite things about hoya is the fluid transitions between each step. I noticed when using yau that my solves felt very jittery, especially during the "last cross edge" stage, something in which I have never felt with hoya.
Nice, what about 5x5? How do you do the last edges?

#### Clarkeeyyy

##### Member
Nice, what about 5x5? How do you do the last edges?
I just do them like redux, which is pretty bad. I completely forgot about the yau5 approach of placing two f2l slots, so its something I'll try and experiment with.

Edit: Just did a solve with the yau5 approach and it was insanely fast, I can't tell if I just got lucky. I'm definitely going to keep working with this though.

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#### Dapianokid

##### Member
Hoya over Yau and redux any day. Now, my average at 5x5 is like 4:15-4:30 because I don't practice much. I am just not experienced. My TPS goes into overload once I get to 3x3 stage, of course, so I'm just not well balanced either. But, the reason it's not 5+ minutes is becuase of Hoya and I've only been using it on 5x5 for 3 days.

I've been using Hoya on 4x4 since I saw Aaron Loprete do an explanation of it and I fell in love. I tried switching to Yau a while back, and I decided that L4centers and weird cross edges was just too much weirdness to try to juggle with, so I switched back to Redux. I did, however, learned L8E from Yau pretty well so when I found out about Hoya the transition was a snap. I have been using it for weeks now and I average 1:20-1:30 on 4x4. I could be faster, but I'm not as focused on it.

Hoya is also a good transition step from Redux to Yau. Yau is just tooooo complicated for some people to get right away. It's like learning Roux or ZZ as a beginner method for 3x3, after LBL. It doesn't make sense and it has too much weird. Hoya will teach you L8E and have the same cross solved step and still preserve the ease of Redux centers until last 2 centers (which takes me all of like 2 seconds. It's not hard to do and I'm sure it'd be sub-1 with practice, guyz.)

Hoya offers the cross skip and amazing lookahead of Yau, without the complications that Yau incorporates. It has those easy Redux centers we all started with and got really good at, and still has that same advantage over Redux. (on 4x4)

The concept of hiding away two tredges of 5x5 is what's brilliant to me, because edge pairing is not as simple on 5x5. It's a snap with this method.

tl;dr?

HoYA it rules!

#### Joey VOV

##### Member
Hoya for the win, glad you made a discussion about it.
I disagree with your statement saying that the last 2 centers can be a bit awkward, all you need to do is hide the cross edge and it is completely normal. Yau centers were a bit awkward for me. Also, I think one of the best advantages is how you don't need to rotate during cross edges. The same thing happened with me as happens with many others who switch to hoya, they just all of the sudden get so much faster than they were. I use hoya for 4x4 and 5x5 and I think it is really personal preference.

Also, what is this talk of yau5 L8E? I just do a standard freeslice then l4e, how does the other approach go?

#### sneaklyfox

##### Member
I liked Hoya when I first tried it. At the time, I wasn't set on any method since I didn't do 4x4. I would try Redux, Yau, and Hoya and switch every few solves. Then I would do some longer sessions using just one method to try and improve it. In the end I went with Yau and that's what I'm using now. I'm still a noob though. I think Hoya has enough potential to be as good as Redux or Yau so use it if you like it.

#### tx789

##### Member
It just personal perfrence in my opinion I don't know much of about Hoya but which is the best 3x3 method? There isn't one.

#### TDM

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I disagree with your statement saying that the last 2 centers can be a bit awkward, all you need to do is hide the cross edge and it is completely normal. Yau centers were a bit awkward for me.
I use Yau, and I found that using half centres wasn't awkward at all. However, this thread has reminded me of Hoya, and I've been practising it a bit. I'm close to my Yau average (1:30 with Hoya, 1:20 with Yau). But something I find awkward is hiding the cross edge. How do you do it? F' R' is really slow for me.

#### Renslay

##### Member
It just personal perfrence in my opinion I don't know much of about Hoya but which is the best 3x3 method? There isn't one.
Of course there is no general best method, but there is best method for one particular person. It's all about preferences.

#### Dapianokid

##### Member
Right. And there are also methods which are comparatively worse simply because of the nature of the method. Like, it's more worth it to be decent at CFOP than even lightspeed with LBL because it's just a better method in THAT sense.
Redux just doesn't stand a chance against even decent Hoya and Yau users. And even the best Yau users should quake with fear of the revolution of Hoya!

#### Nilsibert

##### Member
Hoya for the win, glad you made a discussion about it.
I disagree with your statement saying that the last 2 centers can be a bit awkward, all you need to do is hide the cross edge and it is completely normal. Yau centers were a bit awkward for me. Also, I think one of the best advantages is how you don't need to rotate during cross edges. The same thing happened with me as happens with many others who switch to hoya, they just all of the sudden get so much faster than they were. I use hoya for 4x4 and 5x5 and I think it is really personal preference.

Also, what is this talk of yau5 L8E? I just do a standard freeslice then l4e, how does the other approach go?
I guess it's just a bit weird in the beginning. Do you always add the L to hide the cross edge? It's just a bit of an awkward move to set up and undo, but I discovered some shortcuts to some cases.

About the L8E, watch this

He explains it a bit and it seems like a good method.

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#### Joey VOV

##### Member
I guess it's just a bit weird in the beginning. Do you always add the L to hide the cross edge? It's just a bit of an awkward move to set up and undo, but I discovered some shortcuts to some cases.

About the L8E, watch this

He explains it a bit and it seems like a good method.
Oh, well that is where I learned, I don't really like that method of edge pairing, and he doesn't use that anymore.
Also, I do not always do the L move, on 5x5 if it is easy enough you wont have to. I never do the extra L move on 4x4 though.

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#### mark49152

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I use Yau. I tried Hoya for a few solves and couldn't really see the benefit. Building the cross dedges felt like more moves (although I didn't count) and hiding the cross edge seemed like wasted moves. Finding edges was a bit easier than with Yau, but the centers weren't easier for me. I like Yau centers.

#### Nilsibert

##### Member
Oh, well that is where I learned, I don't really like that method of edge pairing, and he doesn't use that anymore.
Also, I do not always do the L move, on 5x5 if it is easy enough you wont have to. I never do the extra L move on 4x4 though.
Oh so just normal freeslice then? Sorry, I didn't realize he didn't use that method anymore. I like to do it, the only problem is just the first tredges, they can take a lot of moves at times. I'll stick with it and see how I like it since I'm fairly new to this approach. Why don't you like it?

Edit: 100th post.Yay?

#### elrog

##### Member
Last 2 are easy, although they require a set up(getting the cross edge out of the way)
-"easier" cross edges.
Have you ever thought about just building a 2x2x3 (for the 3x3 stage) block on the back of the cube before the last 2 centers? Then you wouldn't have to worry about set up moves for the cross.

#### Chree

##### Member
Right. And there are also methods which are comparatively worse simply because of the nature of the method. Like, it's more worth it to be decent at CFOP than even lightspeed with LBL because it's just a better method in THAT sense.
Redux just doesn't stand a chance against even decent Hoya and Yau users. And even the best Yau users should quake with fear of the revolution of Hoya!
Hah... I don't think anyone is going to quake with much fear, yet. It would be very interesting to see some of the best solvers give Hoya an honest shot. Aaron, himself, is a very good big cube solver, and shows us all the potential Hoya's got.

I switched to Hoya a couple months ago... was only using Yau for a couple months before that. My times have gone steadily down, but honestly I had lots of room for improvement, and still do.

I prefered how the steps flow into each other with Hoya over Yau... not as much back and forth on focus between centers and edges. The Cross edges are almost always dealt with in finger-trick-friendly ways. And there's a lot more freedom with the centers. Aaron and I have discussed different algs for certain cases, but he already did a great job at showing how intuitive the method is. He's already got half of the Northwest cubers converted to Hoya. But like anything else, it's all going to be a matter of preference.

#### Dapianokid

##### Member
I don't think he showed us ALL the potential of the method. I wonder if he even meant to get us all excited about it. He just posted a tutorial and we went wild.
I like the idea of a 2x2x3 block in the back on 5x5.
What is his edge pairing method NOW for 5x5?

#### Joey VOV

##### Member
He still uses hoya, but He does his last 8 edges differently. If I am not mistaking, He does standard freeslice for the first 4, then puts 2 solved edges in the BR and BL slots, and does the type of edge pairing you mentioned until he gets to last 2 edges, which he does like normal. His cubingWord video explains it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNMt5CNxHO4