HOw to solve 5x5x5 or 4x4x4 Faster?

Discussion in 'Cubing Help & Questions' started by Harry, May 4, 2008.

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  1. Harry

    Harry Member

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    Apr 15, 2008
    Toa payoh, Singapore
    OK, guys, I already searched the forum and there is no question like this.

    Well, a few days ago, I saw Frank Morris' 5x5x5 solving video, To be a little slower than that, about 10 min (ignoring the fingertricks), do I need to learn the algorithms? Because, from my personal experience, I must do the center and the edges separately, While from my point of view, He looked like do that in the same time? Is there any algorithms for it? Or, it is just purely intuitive and practice is the key.......

    The same goes for my 4x4x4 solving.
     
  2. TimMc

    TimMc Premium Member

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    Aug 12, 2007
    Melbourne, Australia
    WCA:
    2009MCMA01
    I'm averaging 12 minutes for 5x5x5 (I don't practice much) so my thoughts on this might not be that credible. :p

    Tredge pairing is mostly intuitive. As you saw, you can create a tredge with two slice moves as long as you setup the edges in the correct orientation with respect to the center edge. If you consider edge pairing to be <slice><save pair><slice back> then I suppose you could say both edges were paired at the same time in his video. I.e. <slice><save pair><slice><save pair><slice back><slice back>

    You don't have to "slice back" for the first 8 tredges. You can just ensure that the centers have parallel lines and work with that.

    Tim.
     
  3. PatrickJameson

    PatrickJameson Premium Member

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    Apr 15, 2008
    Buffalo, NY
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    rubiksmaster12
    The reason Frank looked like he was solving both the edges and centers at the same time was because he uses an edge pairing method in which the centers are not always completely solved when he is pairing. This method is explained pretty well at bigcubes.com

    As for 4x4, i recommend to experiment with 2 or 6 pairs at a time.

    The key, in my opinion, is to have a consistent speed, look ahead as much as possible, and practice.
     
  4. Inusagi

    Inusagi Member

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    Oct 6, 2007
    You don't need to do it like he's doing it to get fast.

    Look ahead is the key. You also have to learn some algs for the last two pairs.
     
  5. pcwiz

    pcwiz Member

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    Mar 16, 2008
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    pcwizcube
    I would recommend just practicing. I started doing the 4x4 like a week ago, and I could get solves of around 3:30. I did the centers, edges using 2 pairs at a time, and solving like a 3x3. I'm faster than you at solving a 3x3, but I think you can get times of around 4:30 average. Just keep on practicing. If you times don't get better after 50 solves (don't do it all in one day), then you should come asking.

    I don't know about he 5x5, because I don't know how to solve one, but I'm sure practicing a lot will improve your times.
     
  6. Harry

    Harry Member

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    Apr 15, 2008
    Toa payoh, Singapore
    Sorry Mr TimMc, I don't quite understand about this thing:

    For Mr. PatrickJameson, I don't quite understand this:

    And are you saying, that when Frank solve the cube, he did the tredges first then the centers? Sorry, I don't quite understand bigcubes.com....

    Oh yeah, how come my thread in offtopic discussion is gone? Sorry, I don't know whre to ask so I include it in this thread. It is about the "money from ads" thingy

    Thanks everyone!!
     
  7. TimMc

    TimMc Premium Member

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    Aug 12, 2007
    Melbourne, Australia
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    tredge = three edges grouped together in the correct orientation

    You can create a tredge using slice moves (M, E or S):
    - Find all three edges that you want to put together
    - Position them so that you can do a few slice movement
    - Ensure that the slice movements you're about to do do not effect any tredges that have already been made (i.e. move complete tredges onto faces that wont be affected by the slice moves)
    - Do the appropriate slice moves so that the tredge is created

    Tim.
     
  8. Harry

    Harry Member

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    Apr 15, 2008
    Toa payoh, Singapore
    OK, but isn't that will take more time? Since I must search the tredges pieces then, I will align them. Because, what I do is that I will align the 2 edge pieces then, I will align it with other edge piece? Do you get what I mean.
     
  9. jonny guitar

    jonny guitar Member

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    Jan 9, 2008
    Looking ahead is the answer for speed with those cubes. As you are putting together a dedge or tredge you must be locating the next peice that you will need for the subsequent move. It takes time to get the hang of this so that you have no (or occasional minimal) pauses between matching up the dedge/tredge peices. Unfortunately, there are no short cuts to this other than practicing lots.

    Example using 4x4.....Make sure as you are slotting in the pair to make your present dredge you look at the other half of the pair you are bring in and start looking for it right away for the next move. It will also help to remember any locations of unsolved pairs so you don't have to search but just know where they are. Try doing it slowly with as little amount of pausing as possible so that you are constantly turning the tube and solving non stop. When you get a feel for searching and remembering, gradually speed it up until it is a fluid motion. I cut from around 4 to around 2 fairly quickly using this method and I still have lots of room for improvement.

    I used AvGalen's method with is Centers first in a couple of different ways to choose from, edges/tredges, 3x3. I like the way he does the 5x5 because it has only 1 type of parity which is easy to fix.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2008
  10. PatrickJameson

    PatrickJameson Premium Member

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    rubiksmaster12
    No, he solves the centers first. Then when he gets to the edges, he pairs them up in the E slice and just replaces the existing tredges with other tredges that have the piece he needs to pair. This means that the E slice centers will sometimes be off.

    Don't worry, it took me a while to get it. I recommend AvG edge pairing method to start.
     
  11. rxdeath

    rxdeath Member

    if you specifically tell me what part of the page you don't understand, or what portion of the method you aren't getting i can try and help, but from your questions you haven't even read the glossary or paid much attention to the content of the site. i promise it is all there, and i can answer any questions you have, but i think the thing you need most is effort right now.
     
  12. Harry

    Harry Member

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    Apr 15, 2008
    Toa payoh, Singapore
    Ok, so the key is practice practice and practice. Walah!!!!!

    Which is AVG method?

    For Mr Rxdeath (the name is scary leh), in bigcubes, thne algorithms are function if the pieces are in correct position where as, it is much faster when I solve the center or the tredges or the dedges intuitively than making the pieces in correct position and then doing the algorithms that will align the pieces together. So, as I said before, the method is practicing a lot in looking ahead?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2008
  13. Crzyazn

    Crzyazn Member

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    Feb 7, 2008
    Seattle, WA
    For me edges are key for both cubes. Fast/slow edges are the difference between sub2min on my 4x4 and a 3min monster.

    LOOK AHEAD (copy/paste x2million)
     
  14. BigCubes 5x5x5 and AVG are both reduction methods. That means that
    a) All 9*6 center-pieces are reduced to form 6 big centers
    b) All 3*12 edge-pieces are reduced to form 12 big edges
    c) The cube is solved as a 3x3x3

    The difference between BigCubes and AVG is the B-stage.

    Bigcubes puts a center edge-piece and its 2 wings on the same slice, matches them (actual reduction) and replaces the formed tredge with the next pieces (putting the solved tredge on one of the 2 save faces). For the first 8 tredges there is no need to restore the center slices, so most of the time they will look unsolved, but are actually only 2 moves away from solved. The last 4 tredges require a lot of algs, or something simular to AVG edges (follow the provided links for more details on AVG edges)

    Bigcubes edges refers to edge-pairing as described on bigcubes.com
    AVG edges refers to the way some guy named Arnaud Van Galen solves them ;)

    Both methods require about the same amount of moves and can be performed in about 40 seconds by people that have truely mastered it. I prefer AVG because it requires less algs (only 1)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2008
  15. Harry

    Harry Member

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    Apr 15, 2008
    Toa payoh, Singapore
    Woa:eek::eek::eek::eek:!!!!! 40 secs?:eek::eek: THe fastest is about sub 1 min right? Ckckck

    So, for the edge pairing, there is some algorithms for it?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2008
  16. pcharles93

    pcharles93 Member

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    I only use one algorithm for edge pairing. It's for the last 2 dedges/tredges. I'll use that one 2 times max.
     
  17. Harry

    Harry Member

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    Apr 15, 2008
    Toa payoh, Singapore
    Yeah, I know that one algotithm. So, it is pure intuitive for solving the centers and the tredges except for the last one. Is that what you meant?

    Btw, i practicing and my time is not getting better. Sub-8 min (for 4x4x4).

    My biggest problem is the looking ahead and pauses. I try to look ahead but the pieces are all over the place. Don't you mean, while aligning one dedges, rotating the cube for looking other pair? Is that what you mean?
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2008

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