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CubingUSA Regional Championships

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Well, Daniel didn't really address the point fairly either. It's one thing to disagree with how the champions are determined, and another to act entitled for something that was not earned.
I will say that I probably could have worded that better. My point wasn't to act entitled to something I didn't earn. I'm fully aware that I lost to an eligible competitor. My whole point is that the eligibility requirements are stupid.

If the eligibility requirements allow competitors to represent an area of a country that they don't represent on their WCA profile (which I recognize is different than CUSA), then I fully accept that he "earned" the title. I also am fully within my rights to voice my opinion that that title is now completely meaningless and doesn't represent what it's supposed to at all, and that CUSA's eligibility requirements are absolutely incompetent. They might as well call the title "group of people within this set of strange arbitrary rules champion."

I'm not sure why you think it's "silly" to exclude people from an exclusive title, but you can think whatever weird things you want to.

(no ill intent towards the competitor that won the titles)
 
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One of the considerations we made when drafting our policy was that not all residents of the United States are citizens. Only approximately 93% of United States residents are citizens as there are plenty of people who live here without citizenship. Moreover, many people claim dual citizenship and have chosen not to use their United States citizenship for their nationality in the WCA. To me, it seems more unfair to exclude non-citizens when determining champions.
Why does it matter how many of the competitors are US competitors? I'm sure most people that compete at Euros are from Europe as well. That doesn't mean that everyone should be eligible to be European Champion, and if they are, then it isn't really the European Championship is it?

Your point about dual citizenship is something that I also considered before I posted anything about this. I'm sure many people have chosen not to identify themselves as US citizens instead of their other country. That makes it even worse. If a competitor wants to be eligible for a US regional title, I don't think it's that unfair to expect them to make the CHOICE to represent either one country or the other. The current system being used allows competitors to choose to represent both and benefit from both if they choose to. I know that this is determined by two separate entities, I just don't agree with it.
 
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Moreover, many people claim dual citizenship and have chosen not to use their United States citizenship for their nationality in the WCA.
Fine, but in making that choice, it seems to me that they are making the choice for their home country to be the place where they would like to be eligible for NRs, titles, etc. And so the corollary then is that they would be ineligible for titles in the place they did not choose (i.e. the US).

To me, it seems more unfair to exclude non-citizens when determining champions.
I agree, but only to a certain extent. Let's say a student moves from France to the Northeast US for school in August, and wins Northeast Champs for 4x4 in September. Is the spirit of the regional championship title really embodied by this person who has lived in the US for 1 month? I would think not. What about if they had lived there 6 months? Probably not. 2 years? 5? 10? Certainly someone who has been in the region for 10 years would be well known, dominant at comps in the area, and would be considered in the minds of the people around him/her as 'the best in the area at suchandsuch event', and would be worthy of the title regardless of citizenship.

I think the line is somewhere in there, and it is up to CUSA to determine that. Maybe you would have had to live in that region 5 years to be eligible for a championship? Seems like a reasonable place to start.

That gets kinda nit-picky I guess, but I think Daniel's objection is a valid one, and deserves more consideration at the least.
 

Kit Clement

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If the eligibility requirements allow competitors to represent an area of a country that they don't represent on their WCA profile (which I recognize is different than CUSA), then I fully accept that he "earned" the title. I also am fully within my rights to voice my opinion that that title is now completely meaningless and doesn't represent what it's supposed to at all, and that CUSA's eligibility requirements are absolutely incompetent. They might as well call the title "group of people within this set of strange arbitrary rules champion."

I'm not sure why you think it's "silly" to exclude people from an exclusive title, but you can think whatever weird things you want to.
The main thing we wanted to do was provide titles for the local community of cubers, the people that typically go to competitions together in a specific area. The local community has everything to do with residency, not WCA nationality. Whether or not you include/exclude foreign competitors just changes the eligibility pool, and makes it even narrower. So I don't really see how either case is less of a "group of people within this set of strange arbitrary rules champion."

However, I realize that it's a valid point that Yi-Fan doesn't seem like a part of the local community, as he has only been there for a few months. I think that considering the length of time they have established residency would be a good thing to consider in theory, but this makes our job much more difficult (in some cases, impossible) to determine eligibility, as Shelley mentioned. This would affect anyone who wants to claim a certain region, not just competitors of foreign nationality. I'm open to making adjustments in future years, but I'm unsure of how to reconsider cases like these in a fair/manageable way.
 
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The main thing we wanted to do was provide titles for the local community of cubers, the people that typically go to competitions together in a specific area. The local community has everything to do with residency, not WCA nationality. Whether or not you include/exclude foreign competitors just changes the eligibility pool, and makes it even narrower. So I don't really see how either case is less of a "group of people within this set of strange arbitrary rules champion."

However, I realize that it's a valid point that Yi-Fan doesn't seem like a part of the local community, as he has only been there for a few months. I think that considering the length of time they have established residency would be a good thing to consider in theory, but this makes our job much more difficult (in some cases, impossible) to determine eligibility, as Shelley mentioned. This would affect anyone who wants to claim a certain region, not just competitors of foreign nationality. I'm open to making adjustments in future years, but I'm unsure of how to reconsider cases like these in a fair/manageable way.
Fair enough points, I just don't agree with that vision of how the regional championships should be. I agree that pretty much no matter what rules you have in place it's going to be arbitrary to some extent, I just don't personally believe that the current rules are able to fairly represent regional champions.

Just to clarify, I didn't personally make the suggestion regarding the length of time that someone has been a resident of a region. I'm guessing that part was a reply to Chad's point but just in case.
 
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I just don't agree with that vision of how the regional championships should be. I agree that pretty much no matter what rules you have in place it's going to be arbitrary to some extent, I just don't personally believe that the current rules are able to fairly represent regional champions.
The question is: What SHOULD regional champions represent?

Keep in mind that it has to be something we can actually build rules around and enforce.

Note that, unlike the case with national citizenship, there is no simple concept of state-level "citizenship". Residency is the only way to determine regional eligibility in an enforceable way.

At that point, you basically have the following options:

(A) Regional titles are available to anyone who lives in the region.
(B) Regional titles are available to anyone who both lives in the region AND is a US citizen.
(Maybe some variants on B, like also accepting "green card"-holding permanent residents.)

So what does a regional champion represent?

If you go with (A), you'd get:

Regional champions are the best cubers who currently live in the region.

If you go with (B), you'd get:

Regional champions are the best US citizen cubers who currently live in the region.

That actually feels more arbitrary to me.

(A) is simpler, and it puts the emphasis on the regional community rather than legalities.

Note that the system DOES prevent people from getting a regional title from a region they don't live in.
 
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However, I realize that it's a valid point that Yi-Fan doesn't seem like a part of the local community, as he has only been there for a few months.
I disagree with this, and I imagine most competitors who frequent FL competitions would also disagree.

Regarding this arbitrary residency length of time: While I know CubingUSA discussed this, maybe it's not apparent to people who weren't part of the discussion: What about people who move? What about people who go to school in a different part of the country? I'd say 4 years worth of competing in a given region sure is worthy of winning a regional title.

The actual bottom line to the specific situation at hand, though, is that Yi-Fan will continue to be a part of the the region (at least until he moves for school again).
 
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Out of curiosity, how would you propose that be enforced?
I'm open to making adjustments in future years, but I'm unsure of how to reconsider cases like these in a fair/manageable way.
How about (in addition to the existing rules) in order to be eligible for the 20XX Regional Championship title, you had to have competed in that region in the year (20XX-2), or older? So for this years eligibility, someone would have had to competed in 2016 or before in the region. That would all but establish residency (inasmuch as that is possible with data in the WCA database) for at least a year, and should be easy to automate.
 
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How about (in addition to the existing rules) in order to be eligible for the 20XX Regional Championship title, you had to have competed in that region in the year (20XX-2), or older? So for this years eligibility, someone would have had to competed in 2016 or before in the region. That would all but establish residency (inasmuch as that is possible with data in the WCA database) for at least a year, and should be easy to automate.
Then you're arbitrarily excluding new competitors, and people who live in areas who may not have many competitions. Why shouldn't they have a chance at a championship title?
 
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Then you're arbitrarily excluding new competitors, and people who live in areas who may not have many competitions. Why shouldn't they have a chance at a championship title?
Okay, competitors of foreign citizenship must have competed in the region in (year-2) or earlier, whereas citizens of the US don't have to have this requirement.

I don't think that's particularly exclusive, nor is it unfair. They can still compete, and still win the competition as a matter of fact; they just won't be eligible for the regional title administered by CUSA until they have competed in the region for at least a year.
 
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The question is: What SHOULD regional champions represent?

Keep in mind that it has to be something we can actually build rules around and enforce.

Note that, unlike the case with national citizenship, there is no simple concept of state-level "citizenship". Residency is the only way to determine regional eligibility in an enforceable way.

At that point, you basically have the following options:

(A) Regional titles are available to anyone who lives in the region.
(B) Regional titles are available to anyone who both lives in the region AND is a US citizen.
(Maybe some variants on B, like also accepting "green card"-holding permanent residents.)

So what does a regional champion represent?

If you go with (A), you'd get:

Regional champions are the best cubers who currently live in the region.

If you go with (B), you'd get:

Regional champions are the best US citizen cubers who currently live in the region.

That actually feels more arbitrary to me.

(A) is simpler, and it puts the emphasis on the regional community rather than legalities.

Note that the system DOES prevent people from getting a regional title from a region they don't live in.
You say all of that, but they aren't regions of nothing. They're regions of the United States. I don't think it makes much sense that someone can represent a region of a thing without first representing that thing.

I'm aware that the system prevents people from winning a regional title from a region that they don't live in. I don't agree that living in a region for some amount of time is grounds for you to be able to represent that region when you've made the decision to represent a different country instead of the country that the region is a part of, or can't represent it. I also don't agree that being an established part of the regional community means that you should be able to represent the region.

As an example, I bring up Kevin Min. I think he's a cool guy and I would very much consider him a part of the regional community. That said, he's registered as a citizen of Korea. I think it's fair to consider him as part of the US cubing community as well, but that doesn't make him eligible to become US national champion. I really hate to say that because he's my friend and I don't have any ill intent towards him, especially since I don't think he's done anything wrong, but it is what it is. Regardless, I'm happy for him on his wins.

This is all my opinion of how regional championships should be. You can have whatever opinion of how it should be that you want, but I don't think I'm going to be the only one that disagrees with the way things currently are, and either way, I don't believe that's an unfair view of how regional championships should be.
 
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I think it makes more sense for someone to be able to represent the place where they call home rather than the country they happen to have a passport from. There are probably lots of non-US citizens who haven't been to the country of their birth in years, and while it's how the WCA does things, IMO it actually makes less sense for them to be able to represent a country they don't live in.

We've established residency requirements for determining regional championship eligibility as well as rules to prevent people from winning titles in more than one region in one year. I think those requirements by themselves are sufficient without having to bring citizenship into the mix.

If we think the system is being abused, we may revisit these policies. However, a college student representing the region where they're living and going to school is the system working as we intended.
 
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