[Help Thread] 2x2x2 Ortega Method Discussion

Discussion in 'Cubing Help & Questions' started by Jude, Jun 23, 2008.

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  1. Jude

    Jude Member

    291
    0
    Mar 27, 2008
    Sheffield, England
    WCA:
    2008WRIG02
    Well, I just learned the Ortega method, as I previously solved it just like corners on a 3x3x3 (LBL method). Because the Ortega method doesn't require the bottom face to have correct permutation, and because half the algorithms are faster than the T and Y perms I use at the moment, I assumed I would see an immediate improvement in my times, but in fact it's made my average about 4 seconds slower. Wondered if I was going about it the right way, here's my method.

    0) During inspection work out the moves to solve bottom face (the corners don't have to be correct relative to each other) and see whether it will have 0, 1 or 2 correct 'bars' (i.e. 2 stickers the same colour next to each other on the D face) when complete.

    1) Solve bottom face.

    2a) If it's 0 bars, leave it as it is then do OLL, then step 3ai/ii/iii
    2b) If it's 1 bar, put the bar at the back, then do OLL, then step 3bi/ii/iii
    2c) If it's 2 bars, leave it as it is then do OLL, then step 3ci/ii/iii

    3ai)If the top has 0 bars, perform R2 F2 R2 and AUF
    3aii)If the top has 1 bar, put it at the front and perform (R U' R) (F2) (R' U R') then AUF.
    3aiii)If the top has 2 bars, perform x2, then Y perm, then AUF.

    3bi) If the top has 1 bar, put it at the back and perform (R2 U R2) (Y U2) (R2 U R2) F2 then AUF.
    3bii) If the top has 0 bars, perform x2 (R U' R) (F2) (R' U R') then AUF.
    3biii) If the top has 2 bars, perform x2 y' and then T perm

    3bi) If the top has 0 bars, perform Y perm, then AUF.
    3bii) If the top has 1 bar, put it on the left and perform T perm, then AUF.
    3biii) If the top has 2 bars, the cube is complete!

    As well as a question this threat can sort of also act as a guide for anyone else wondering about Ortega, as all the methods I've found on the internet seemed a little hard to understand.
     
  2. Swordsman Kirby

    Swordsman Kirby Member

    1,802
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    Apr 29, 2006
    Don't tell me you actually use the T and the Y perms as your algs?

    There are much faster ones.
     
  3. Jude

    Jude Member

    291
    0
    Mar 27, 2008
    Sheffield, England
    WCA:
    2008WRIG02
    Well I wanted to learn a better method whilst learning as few algorithms as I could, and this way I only had to learn 2 new algorithms. But, would be nice to have alternatives to Y and T, could you post them please?
     
  4. PCwizCube

    PCwizCube Premium Member

    966
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    May 9, 2008
    YouTube:
    pcwizcube
    T Permutation Alternate: (RU2R'U')(RU2)(L'UR'U'L')

    Y Permutation Alternate: RU'R'U'F2U'RUR'DR2

    I got them from Erik Akkersdijk's 2x2 Ortega method tutorial (old website)
    http://erikku.er.funpic.org/rubik/
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2008
  5. fanwuq

    fanwuq Member

    2,838
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    Dec 5, 2007
    WCA:
    2008FANW01
    YouTube:
    fanwuq
    My comments:

    1. Solve face (see the bar, remember where it is. Don't put it anyway in particular
    2. just OLL
    3. permute

    ai. no bar both layer R2F2R2
    aii. one bar top, no bar bottom. Consider to learn all 4 situations (the mirrors) rather than AUF or rotate it all.
    aiii. correct

    bi. both layers one bar. put both on F. If both are on B. start with L2 instead of R2.
    bii. correct. Consider to learn all 4 situations (the mirrors) rather than AUF or rotate it all.
    biii. I like J much better.

    ci. correct
    cii. correct
    ciii. correct

    also Y is not the best choice either...
     
  6. fanwuq

    fanwuq Member

    2,838
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    Dec 5, 2007
    WCA:
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    fanwuq
    That's not T. That's just regular old J.
    Personally, I don't like that 'Y" alg. I prefer, Jason Baum's real Y alg (only 14 moves with lot's of triggers).
     
  7. Erik

    Erik Member

    That alg is nice for 2x2 though.
    Other possibilities could be: L'U'R'U2LU'L'U2R2 or even: x' R2U'R'UR2 x'y' R'UR'U'R2 (which are yes both a J perm in a way)
     
  8. Kenneth

    Kenneth Not Alot

    One error many does is to solve the first layer corners one by one using 3-5 turns per corner. Not good... So if you do that, try this instead:

    1, use any colour for start, that makes it 6 times easier to find a good starting point. This is much easier to learn than many think, it's akvard at first but after a few days it's OK.

    2, look for a side that has 2 corners solved already, it happens almost every time.

    3, learn to put in the missing two corners in one go, normaly you can do it in 1-5 turns, average is 2-3 something. Yes 2-3 turns to solve the first step!

    Advanced:

    When inspecting for the first face look also at the edge to predict the permutation pattern the layer will have when it's done. Assume you start in white and there are two solved pices to start from, DLF and DLB, at the L side these shows red and green = it is a red/green pair. From that we can understand there will be no solved red pair and no solved green pair because one of each is occupied already. So the pair will become either orange or blue, which depends on how the other two pices are solved, track the turns you need to do to solve those and you will know your permutation pattern for the first layer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2008
  9. Jude

    Jude Member

    291
    0
    Mar 27, 2008
    Sheffield, England
    WCA:
    2008WRIG02
    I'm already colour neutral on 2x2x2 even though I'm not on 3x3x3. Definately helps alot, as there are no centres.

    Yep, the first 2 corners are already in, adjacent to each other, the third can always be put in in a maximum of 2, then the last in a maximum of 3, but this can usually be avoided by starting with a different colour and putting them in together.

    This is usually what I use my inspection time for, and then keep it in my mind both what colour I'm looking for on top for OLL, as well as where the 'bars' are on the bottom layer, so permutation recognition is faster.

    Kenneth, you seem pretty adapted with this method, what do you average? My record with this is just over 10 seconds, and non lucky PB is 8.89
     
  10. philkt731

    philkt731 Member

    638
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    Oct 17, 2007
    West Lafayette
    WCA:
    2007THOM02
    YouTube:
    philkt731
    Hey Tim, whats ur alg that you use for two adjacent corner switch. I know (or think) Erik uses R U2 R' U' R U2 L U R' U' L, and how fast is yours?
     
  11. FredM

    FredM Member

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    Jun 13, 2008
    WCA:
    2008MEIN01
    For two adjacent, i use :

    RU'LU2R'URU2R2.
     
  12. Swordsman Kirby

    Swordsman Kirby Member

    1,802
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    Apr 29, 2006
    Let's not talk about that... Erik no longer uses that alg, I think. I was talking to him about it a couple days ago, and he showed me algs he could do in 1.0x, but I couldn't do sub-2. :p

    I currently use that one, but I hate it. I'm around 1.7 with it.

    EDIT: Erik posted three posts above you, Phil!
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2008
  13. DavidWoner

    DavidWoner The Punchmaster

    3,936
    2
    May 7, 2008
    Kansas City, MO, USA
    WCA:
    2008WONE01
    YouTube:
    vault312
    i've never seen anyone make ortega look so complicated!! i have also never heard of anyone slowing down. i learned it less than a week ago and my average has dropped from 9 to 7 seconds in that small time frame, and it seems like i get a new non-lucky pb every day.(currently at 4.76, sig. is out of date). with fridrich/lbl 2 my pb was 6.71.

    your steps:
    1a: im assuming this is good. you should know the permutation of your first layer. also, if your first layer is 3 moves or less, you should try to predict the OLL. if you can see you have an OLL skip, try to predict PLL. this becomes very easy after you practice a bit. it is also how i got my 1.96 OLL skip, by reading the whole solve and turning non-stop.

    2a-c: dont bother with ADF, just remember where it is.

    3a: seems ok

    3bi: if you put the bars in front and do (R2 U R2) (Y' U2) (R2 U R2) you can save the F2. it is the same alg, but with a different y rotation. it also allows you to perform (U2 y') as (U D') which is much faster than a U2 plus rotation. also with the bars in front, you can easily predict your AUF, which can save .5-1 seconds of recognition.
    3bii: use L D' R U2 R' D R' instead of an x2. it is a modified form of the mirror alg: L D' L F2 L' D L'. it seems a little weird at first but after a few minutes practice it is very natural. it is my second fastest PBL(after R2 F2 R2).
    3biii: i still do x2 Tperm but i am planning on learning an alg so i dont have to x2.

    3ci: switch from y perm. it is terribly slow.
    3cii: i have tried the other algs but T is still fastest for me. i am actually faster at Tperm on 2x2 than 3x3. maybe that my 3x3's fault though...
    3ciii: hard to mess this one up

    aside from your step 2 and a few algs, what you're doing seems fine. mostly you just need to practice, and make sure youre practicing the right stuff. also work on recognition tricks, because in my opinion, recognition is the only tricky part about ortega.
     
  14. Kenneth

    Kenneth Not Alot

    I can do Ortega in about 7-8 on average if I practice a day or two. But most times I only use Ortega when I can't find a good start for 1 layer + CLL that is the method I usally do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2008
  15. Henrik

    Henrik Member

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    Aug 15, 2007
    Fyn, Denmark
    WCA:
    2006BUUS01
    YouTube:
    henrikthedane
    I have to learn all the CLL's (again for EG1)
    Else I use Ortega, and avg round 5 sec. with a record of 4.27 sec avg.
    for the J-perm or T-perm as some say I use what Erik has posted on his old site and I can do that in 0.95 sec and then I use to variations of it one for when its on the left side on U layer and one for right side on D layer. I can do both of those in sub-1.2 sec.

    3bi: If the bars are in front, I use L2UF2U2R2UR2 and execute that in 0.75 sec the same as its mirror when they are on the back (R2UF2U2R2UR2) also in 0.75 sec. I have no regrip on those algs.

    Well it goes for all algs, I use, that I can perform them in 1.2 or less except for the two "Y-perms" (U or D layer) those take 1.6 to 1.8 sec.

    But I really want to learn more and all of EG method but I just don't know when to start, I feel so busy and stressed at the moment.
     
  16. philkt731

    philkt731 Member

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    Oct 17, 2007
    West Lafayette
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    YouTube:
    philkt731
    For adjacent switcher, I use x U2 R' U' R U2 R'+x U R' U' R2, and I can do it 0.90-1.00 seconds

    For double bar in front I get around 1.25-1.35
    For double bar in back I get about 1.10-1.20

    For no bar on bottom bar in top front I get around 0.75- 0.85

    For "Y Perm" I get aoround 1.55-1.80
     
  17. Swordsman Kirby

    Swordsman Kirby Member

    1,802
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    Apr 29, 2006
    Wow, that's a great alg.
     
  18. Alopex

    Alopex Member

    1
    0
    May 10, 2009
    so how do you preform the two Y-perms? I use R U' R' U' F2 U' R U R' D' R2 when it's in the U-layer, but i have no alg for the D-layer?
     
  19. martijn_cube

    martijn_cube Member

    465
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    Feb 26, 2008
    netherlands, Lisse
    WCA:
    2007BAKK02
    YouTube:
    kadettv8
    This is a guimond Tutorial i made a while ago. it's also in the how-to.
    maybe it helps, it's pretty easy i think. if anyone has a better upload site let me hear :)

    Guimond
     
  20. TMOY

    TMOY Member

    1,802
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    Jun 29, 2008
    WCA:
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    I do L' U L U F2 U' L' U' L U' F2 for the U-layer perm. To get the D-layer perm, I simply insert a L2 before the last F2: L' U L U F2 U' L' U L U' L2 F2.
    In fact this is simply the U-layer perm followed by F2 L2 F2, with two F2 cancelling.
     

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