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drewsopchak

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Audio for both...
Look, our brains have evolved to be able to remember around 10 seconds of audio in order to carry on a conversation. The thing is, if your using audio for both corners and edges, then it will be difficult for you to keep memo under ten seconds. I would recommend that you use Audio for corners, but switch it up for edges. You could use sentence, letter pair images, or something else. Experiment. There is no rush. Find something comfortable that you enjoy doing.
 

AbstractAlg

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Start with images, making stories with those images that interact.
Like explained here for example: http://www.stefan-pochmann.info/spocc/blindsolving/3x3/old.php
You must train your brain to start remembering things much more frequently, with great accuracy, and first of all to get used to things you'll remember over and over again. Meaning, be familiar with your scheme, reckognize pieces easily, find the best memo that suits yours, not someone else's needs.
So, ease yourself as much as possible to memo things that are well known to you, train your brain, and only after that you should worry about speed. And later when you did so many bld solves and successful memos, your memo will probably evolve to super fast, but super-short term audio memory.
 

Czery

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Based on experience, would you (people in general) believe that one can shave off a substantial amount of time by switching from Ol' Poch edges to M2.
I'll probably switch to M2 anyway as it is similar enough to OP.
 

Noahaha

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Based on experience, would you (people in general) believe that one can shave off a substantial amount of time by switching from Ol' Poch edges to M2.
I'll probably switch to M2 anyway as it is similar enough to OP.

Well it's the difference between T-perm and a simple M2, so definitely go for it. It also lets you start adding simple 3-cycles when you feel like it.
 

aronpm

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Well it's the difference between T-perm and a simple M2, so definitely go for it. It also lets you start adding simple 3-cycles when you feel like it.

You can also add 3cycles into your solves when using Old Pochmann
 

Ickathu

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Is TuRBo significantly better than M2? For some reason, when I solve TuRBo, my memo is tons slower :confused:. My execution ends up being slower too, because I have to think about setup moves more and which alg to do. Obviously this will go away after a while, but how long? I rarely get a success during TuRBo, and though I don't get successes that often with M2, I get them a lot more and a lot quicker (usually 1 min or so).
 

Zane_C

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Is TuRBo significantly better than M2?
No, in fact, many would argue that M2 is better than TuRBo. I think of the two as equally fast methods.
I find that TuRBo offers a nice transition into more advanced 3-cycles. This is because TuRBo can become quite faster by applying the ELL algs on different angles and setting up the targets to not just UL/LU + UR/RU. Then again, M2 can transition into M-slice commutators quite smoothly.

Examples of more "advanced" 3-cycles:
UF>FD>RF can be solved by doing x (R U R' U' M' U R U' Rw') x'.
UF>LF>UB can be solved by doing L' U' (M U M' U2 M U M') U L.

For some reason, when I solve TuRBo, my memo is tons slower :confused:. My execution ends up being slower too, because I have to think about setup moves more and which alg to do. Obviously this will go away after a while, but how long?
I too am confused as to why your memo is slower with TuRBo, perhaps it's because you're contemplating the setup moves while memorising? It may take a few weeks (maybe less or more) for your execution speed to exceed that of M2, this is difficult to answer, as I haven't been in this situation (went straight to TuRBo).

I rarely get a success during TuRBo, and though I don't get successes that often with M2, I get them a lot more and a lot quicker (usually 1 min or so).
It makes sense to be less accurate, since M2 has very easy setup moves. It may sound strange now, but TuRBo setups become very fluent with a bit of practice. I almost gave up TuRBo because thinking about the setups consumed so much time. Soon enough, after a few weeks (don't remember exactly) the setups became just as fluent as those for M2 are.

Just remember, DF buffer obviously uses a lot of M-slice moves, and UF buffer tends to deal with a lot of outer layer turns. Consider your turning style.
If you don't have any long term plans on progressing onto speed optimal 3-cycles (3style), and you like M-slices, I suggest you stick with M2.
 

Ickathu

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No, in fact, many would argue that M2 is better than TuRBo. I think of the two as equally fast methods.
I find that TuRBo offers a nice transition into more advanced 3-cycles. This is because TuRBo can become quite faster by applying the ELL algs on different angles and setting up the targets to not just UL/LU + UR/RU. Then again, M2 can transition into M-slice commutators quite smoothly.

Examples of more "advanced" 3-cycles:
UF>FD>RF can be solved by doing x (R U R' U' M' U R U' Rw') x'.
UF>LF>UB can be solved by doing L' U' (M U M' U2 M U M') U L.

I too am confused as to why your memo is slower with TuRBo, perhaps it's because you're contemplating the setup moves while memorising? It may take a few weeks (maybe less or more) for your execution speed to exceed that of M2, this is difficult to answer, as I haven't been in this situation (went straight to TuRBo).


It makes sense to be less accurate, since M2 has very easy setup moves. It may sound strange now, but TuRBo setups become very fluent with a bit of practice. I almost gave up TuRBo because thinking about the setups consumed so much time. Soon enough, after a few weeks (don't remember exactly) the setups became just as fluent as those for M2 are.

Just remember, DF buffer obviously uses a lot of M-slice moves, and UF buffer tends to deal with a lot of outer layer turns. Consider your turning style.
If you don't have any long term plans on progressing onto speed optimal 3-cycles (3style), and you like M-slices, I suggest you stick with M2.

I guess I might as well stick with TuRBo then. Eventually I do want to average sub-1, or even sub-45, but that won't be for a while. Thanks!
(I feel like I typed a really short reply compared to your post, but worry not! I read it all.)

Now I have another question:
I should probably get TuRBo edges down first, before I ask this but oh well. ;) Corner execution? Right now I use OP Y perms, and its fine and all, but takes a while. I've heard that TuRBo corners really isn't that great, and R2 becomes just as slow with the long setup moves, but I don't think I'm really ready for BH yet. Should I keep working on OP for a while and then switch to BH once I average 1:30 [full solve, not just corners] or so, or is there a different method I should use?

Thanks!
 

DrKorbin

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No, in fact, many would argue that M2 is better than TuRBo. I think of the two as equally fast methods.

Once I calculated the mean move count for M2 and TuRBo. Using TuRBo, you can solve each 3-cycle in 13.xx moves on the average, using pure M2 (without advanced tricks) you can solve a 3-cycle in 14.xx moves. So they are almost equal.
(I guess calculation of average move count in TuRBo depends on setup moves you use; I always make 0, 1 or 2 setup moves, so I calculated this way).
 

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I should probably get TuRBo down first, before I ask this but oh well. :D
There's nothing wrong with thinking ahead. :)
Corner execution? Right now I use OP Y perms, and its fine and all, but takes a while. I've heard that TuRBo corners really isn't that great, and R2 becomes just as slow with the long setup moves, but I don't think I'm really ready for BH yet. Should I keep working on OP for a while and then switch to BH once I average 1:30 [full solve, not just corners] or so, or is there a different method I should use?

Thanks!
There shouldn't be much of a hurray to switch from OP. You're right about R2 and TuRBo corners, for the amount of effort required to nail these methods, you may as well learn at least basic BH commutators.

Since TuRBo edges and BH corners are 2 completely different things, I think you should get used to TuRBo, then learn BH when you're ready.
The first commutators you should learn are the 8 movers (pure comms), then 10 movers (orthogonals). From there, you can slowly replace OP with BH. You might start off by using 1 commutator in every 3 solves, then 1 in every 2... and eventually commutators will dominate the y-perms.

Once I calculated the mean move count for M2 and TuRBo. Using TuRBo, you can solve each 3-cycle in 13.xx moves on the average, using pure M2 (without advanced tricks) you can solve a 3-cycle in 14.xx moves. So they are almost equal.
(I guess calculation of average move count in TuRBo depends on setup moves you use; I always make 0, 1 or 2 setup moves, so I calculated this way).
That's interesting, thanks for sharing. :)
 

AbstractAlg

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Now I have another question:
I should probably get TuRBo edges down first, before I ask this but oh well. ;) Corner execution? Right now I use OP Y perms, and its fine and all, but takes a while. I've heard that TuRBo corners really isn't that great, and R2 becomes just as slow with the long setup moves, but I don't think I'm really ready for BH yet. Should I keep working on OP for a while and then switch to BH once I average 1:30 [full solve, not just corners] or so, or is there a different method I should use?

Same thing here. Try this: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?9594-Freestyle-Corners-for-Dummies-R2-Variant.
Ignore the title, it pretty nice way to solve corners, it is based upon commutators it is a 3-cycle and has just a tiny bit larger move count than 3-style.
The point is to reduce every 3-cycle to one of three types of cycles that you're familiar with. A perm, 2 U stickers, one sticker in F/B/R/L, or two stickers in F/B/R/L and your buffer in U. It's extremely efficent method, and I think it's closest you can get to 3-style, because you are doing the commutators, but for some hard to see/hard to setup cases you may learn some 3-style algorithm that will speed you up. Just like edge TuRBo -> 3-style transition, but only for corners. So you don't get too restricted trying to reduce the case to TuRBo case, but any of 3-type comms that you can easily execute.

Hope this wasn't confusing. :)
Cheers!
 

Ickenicke

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I learned how to solve the cube with pochmann, 2-3 months ago I think, and I have now started of thinking that I should practise BLD serioulsy.

I am thinking about learning TuRBo for edges, but I don't now what memo system to use. When I solved with Pochmann I were memorizing every edge with an image. UF became UFo and BL became BLood for example. Is this system good, and is it possible to sub-50,sub-40?

Also wondering if it is hard to learn TuRBo for corners? I think it is good to use TuRBo if I sometimes want to learn 3-cycles. Is Audio-memo good for that?
 

AbstractAlg

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I learned how to solve the cube with pochmann, 2-3 months ago I think, and I have now started of thinking that I should practise BLD serioulsy.

I am thinking about learning TuRBo for edges, but I don't now what memo system to use. When I solved with Pochmann I were memorizing every edge with an image. UF became UFo and BL became BLood for example. Is this system good, and is it possible to sub-50,sub-40?

Also wondering if it is hard to learn TuRBo for corners? I think it is good to use TuRBo if I sometimes want to learn 3-cycles. Is Audio-memo good for that?

Sub40 full solve or just memo? Memo certainly yes, full solve, would require serious amount of practice.
Wouldn't recommend TuRBo corners, it's sometimes very hard to see what's the cycle after some harder setup moves.
Audio memo for corners - yes. :)
 

Ickenicke

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Sub40 full solve or just memo? Memo certainly yes, full solve, would require serious amount of practice.
Wouldn't recommend TuRBo corners, it's sometimes very hard to see what's the cycle after some harder setup moves.
Audio memo for corners - yes. :)

Yeah, I now that it is really hard to get sub-40 with any method/memo. I were just wondering if any of the good cubers use that memory method.

Also, what do you recommend for corners?
 

Ickathu

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Same thing here. Try this: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?9594-Freestyle-Corners-for-Dummies-R2-Variant.
Ignore the title, it pretty nice way to solve corners, it is based upon commutators it is a 3-cycle and has just a tiny bit larger move count than 3-style.
The point is to reduce every 3-cycle to one of three types of cycles that you're familiar with. A perm, 2 U stickers, one sticker in F/B/R/L, or two stickers in F/B/R/L and your buffer in U. It's extremely efficent method, and I think it's closest you can get to 3-style, because you are doing the commutators, but for some hard to see/hard to setup cases you may learn some 3-style algorithm that will speed you up. Just like edge TuRBo -> 3-style transition, but only for corners. So you don't get too restricted trying to reduce the case to TuRBo case, but any of 3-type comms that you can easily execute.

Hope this wasn't confusing. :)
Cheers!

Muy, muy complicado...
Thanks for the link anyway, but I think I might stick to OP corners and gradually learn BH like Zane said.


Yeah, I now that it is really hard to get sub-40 with any method/memo. I were just wondering if any of the good cubers use that memory method.

Also, what do you recommend for corners?

I think most advanced Blind solvers create images interacting with each other or sentences for edges (using those kinds of images). Except, I think usually people assign a lettering scheme (such as spefz) and then memorize those letter pairs using Letter pair images.
For corners, most people use a lettering scheme (such as spefz) and then create sounds on the go as they solve (e.g. RGSMCH would become something like RaG SMitCH)
 
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Nace112

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3x3 BLD: Visual Memo

I had a quick question. I was going to use letters to memorize my edges but i found that visual memo was easier. Is visual efficient at all or am i setting my self up for failure?
 
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