ZZ Cubers

Discussion in 'General Speedcubing Discussion' started by JohnnyA, Dec 28, 2008.

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  1. CubingGenius

    CubingGenius Member

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    Jul 3, 2016
    Blocks won't always be enough to recognise the whole case. If you have a 2x1x1, for example, you won't have enough information to solve the case. And if you can use blocks to recognise TTLLs in one step, you would be able to use this for ZZLL as well. You need to work out the permutation of 4 corners and the permutation of 2 edges compared to having to work out the orientation and permutation of 3 corners and the permutation of 1 edge.

    For me, the recognition would work like this:

    ZZLL recognition:
    Step 1: Orientation and Permutation of 3 corners (same as COLL)
    Step 2: Edge permutation of 1 edge

    TTLL recognition:
    Step 1: Permutation of 4 corners
    Step 2: Edge permutation of 2 edges
     
    Teoidus likes this.
  2. 4Chan

    4Chan Premium Member

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    Jun 21, 2008
    Lumbridge
    YouTube:
    boxxybabee
    You do realise that I don't look at the permutation for anything, right?
    They ALWAYS give enough information.

    You're also working purely from conjecture.
    Anyone who's reached a certain level in ZBLL or 1LLL recognition just looks at patterns.

    TTLL is a simpler pattern, simpler blocks.


    My message to everyone is simple:

    Stop guessing and conjecturing.
    Actually go and learn those methods you're talking about.

    If you like ZZLL, just go ahead and do it, get fast averages, and congratulations.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
  3. CubingGenius

    CubingGenius Member

    240
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    Jul 3, 2016
    Setup: R' U2 R U R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R' U'

    How would you use your block method in this example? I'm not sure how you would do it.

    I know 4 COLL cases of ZBLL from all 4 angles and dozens of other ZBLLs, so I can recognise the cases already very well. I was just confused how you would get the information for the case, because I can't seem to work out how.
     
  4. 4Chan

    4Chan Premium Member

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    Jun 21, 2008
    Lumbridge
    YouTube:
    boxxybabee
    It's just like PLL, literally.
    I just know the colours of all the cases, just like how an A perm = block + headlights + opposite colours

    The case you listed has a block with a bunch of opposite colours, and is the only one with that particular combination. No mental gymnastics required, just pure reflex.


    If you watch the last minute of this video, you can see how I do it quickly.
     
    CubingGenius likes this.
  5. CubingGenius

    CubingGenius Member

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    25
    Jul 3, 2016
    Thank you for explaining. I thought you were originally saying after seeing a 1x1x2 block you don't look at the other pieces and already know the cases since you didn't mention them.

    I think I would find it more difficult learning the cases to make a unique recognition method for each one, so I think I prefer my recognition method. But yours is also very good as well.

    Now I understand it better, it is quite a good recognition method. Thank you for explaining so I now know how it works. :)

    By the way, do you always AUF the F2L corner to the UBL slot?
     
  6. Rubik's cubed

    Rubik's cubed Member

    1
    0
    Mar 17, 2017
    Hi, I am new to zz and I can't find a good place to learn eo line. I get the idea, but I always end up with an odd number of bad edges. Anyone know where to learn? Thanks!
     
  7. You can never have an odd number of bad edges so you must be recognising wrong. Have a look for asmallkitten's ZZ tutorial.
     
  8. AlphaSheep

    AlphaSheep Member

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    Nov 11, 2014
    Gauteng, South Africa
    WCA:
    2014GRAY03
    Videos are great and all, but with EOLine, I think a text tutorial is best. I still think the best place to learn to recognise EO is Conrad Rider's tutorial: http://cube.crider.co.uk/zz.php?p=eoline
     
  9. RonM

    RonM Member

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    Apr 4, 2017
    Central Illinois, USA
    Dropping my name here as a budding ZZ cuber. Learned it from asmallsheep's tutorials and have since fallen in love (seriously need to rewatch those. So much useful info).

    My PB with it is embarrassing and irrelevant given how new I am to speedcubing in general, and especially ZZ but I checked my Ao12 today and it's 1:38, which I don't think is too bad considering my CFOP Ao50 is barely sub 60 currently.

    I'm picking up ZZF2L fairly quickly, but coming from CFOP I'm not used to even attempting to track anything more than the 4 pieces of my cross, so when I get 6 or more bad edges I struggle to track them all; the struggle only gets more real with more bad edges. I feel like with practice and plenty of slow solves my EOLine, and ZZF2L, will get faster.

    Right now I'm just using 3LLL (because ZZ is awesome and OLL is easy with it) and have started memorizing more perms (I know the U perms, J perms, A perms, Y, T, and E perms so far). I'm aware there are a lot of great LL alg sets that go well with ZZ... but which one would you guys recommend for a beginner? Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask. :p
     
  10. Rpotts

    Rpotts Member

    1,832
    20
    Mar 23, 2008
    KC
    WCA:
    2010POTT01
    YouTube:
    rpotts1
    In my opinion the best beginner LL for ZZ is OLL/PLL, two look PLL for the cases you don't know.
     
  11. RonM

    RonM Member

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    1
    Apr 4, 2017
    Central Illinois, USA
    Thanks for the input, Rpotts! I always appreciate seeing your replies.

    As a follow up, when one is ready to move on from a beginner LL what LL would you recommend to begin learning next?
     
  12. AlphaSheep

    AlphaSheep Member

    812
    294
    Nov 11, 2014
    Gauteng, South Africa
    WCA:
    2014GRAY03
    Learn H and Z perms to finish a full 3 look LL. After that, finishing PLL is a fairly natural progression and will let you finish LL in 2 looks every time. Once you're comfortable with full PLL, I recommend gradually learning COLL. Replace one corner set at a time. I recommend learning T, then U, then L, then Pi and then H. Leave Sune and Anti-Sune for last, but they're actually not as bad as some people make them out to be.
     
    RonM and pglewis like this.
  13. pglewis

    pglewis Member

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    Sep 23, 2016
    Cincinnati
    WCA:
    2016LEWI07
    @RonM: I'm dipping a toe into ZZ as well, currently a low 30 second CFOP'er. I already know full PLL and nearly half of OLL so I'm already able to 2-look worst case with pre-oriented edges. COLL would by my next step for an alg-set, 1:12 chance of PLL skip and an EPLL case guaranteed otherwise. Actually, COLL would be on my priority list next even with CFOP but I'd be able take immediate advantage of it with ZZ since I can already always 2-look. Working backwards from considering COLL is what led me to try ZZ.
     
  14. RonM

    RonM Member

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    1
    Apr 4, 2017
    Central Illinois, USA
    So it's decided then, I'll learn the remaining PLLs (I actually know H and Z already, just forgot to list them) then start learning COLL.

    Do you see yourself favoring ZZ over CFOP so far? I've read/heard a lot of people say they "would switch, but invested so much time into [method] already". I'm fortunate enough to be almost as bad at ZZ as I am with CFOP, so I feel like after getting over the steep learning curve that is EOLine, ZZ will yield better results for me. I find that block building is a TON easier for me than pairing in CFOP, but that's likely because white stickers are a lot easier to see on edges therefore easier to find.
     
  15. pglewis

    pglewis Member

    401
    679
    Sep 23, 2016
    Cincinnati
    WCA:
    2016LEWI07
    After a few weeks of splitting practice time between normal CFOP and EO-CFOP (I'm not even doing EO+Line or block building yet) I have the same opinion as I did the first day I experimented, only with more conviction: if I were confident I could reliably plan EOLine in under 15 seconds I'd formally switch right now for 3x3. My lookahead is not innately very good and is slow to develop. Pre-oriented edges presents a much better world for me, less chaos than what I end up doing in a normal CFOP solve and it results in more enjoyment. Since the first day of experimenting with EO I often catch myself starting to plan a cross and think "screw that" and start looking at EO instead.

    If my personal laser-focused goal was to reach a sub-20 3x3 average as soon as possible from where I am then it would make most sense to just stick with CFOP and spam F2L as much as time allows. I'm at the stage where I have all the tools to get there but for the remaining lookahead deficit. With occasional singles in the low 20s now I've started to think forward to what life after sub-20 means for me because it's no longer some pie in the sky goal I set while I was over 2 mins. Sub 20 was such a ridiculous idea for so long that I hadn't given consideration to "what about sub 15?" Turning faster is always a viable option, better lookahead is always a viable option, but moving beyond OLL/PLL would be the next obvious thing for me to explore and COLL easily seems to be the most bang for the buck in that direction. Last slot twiddling in order to get a COLL case isn't very attractive to me, cool as it may be, so I literally worked backwards from considering COLL to considering ZZ.

    So, the worst possible damage I can see from looking into it-- even if it turns out to be a side-trip I abandon-- is it just delays me reaching some arbitrary next plateau with my current method by claiming practice time. In reality I believe it's going to improve my CFOP solves: better EO awareness leading to less rotational chaos during F2L and the move restrictions are forcing me to re-evaluate several F2L cases I've been approaching too generally. Continued CFOP practice with mixed orientation wasn't shedding a direct light on those cases until ZZ took away my sledgehammers.

    By speedsolving standards we're basically at the same level and it's the same for me. Given unlimited inspection time I could probably nail a PB single with just EO+CFOP now, with all the opportunities for luck. An easy 4-edge fix, cooperative rotationless F2L, OLL skip and an easy PLL... nothing completely crazy and a sub 20 recipe for me if I ever saw one. And from there I'm 40 COLL algs away from adding a 1:12 shot at PLL skip as a cherry on top of the built-in 8x greater chance of LL and OLL skip. The only question mark at all is if and how long it will take me to be able to do EOLine within the inspection window (leaving time to set the cube down and activate the timer means about 12 seconds max to me). TBH, the only strong arguments against that I've seen are that ready-made pairs spotted in inspection are harder to preserve and if I'm going to look deeper during inspection I could put that effort into x-cross. CFOP is still that constant reminder that you shouldn't underestimate judicious use of brute force when time is of the essence.
     

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