[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

Discussion in 'Cubing Help & Questions' started by koreancuber, Apr 29, 2010.

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  1. CubingGenius

    CubingGenius Member

    Jul 3, 2016
    I actually do count them from the same angle. I look at an edge and work whether it is oriented or not on every one.

    Like this:
  2. CubingGenius

    CubingGenius Member

    Jul 3, 2016
    I have more information:

    I did 6 solves and timed the EO axis recognition and the line recognition.

    1. 15.42, 1:18.73, 1:34.16
    2. 17.62, 52.42, 1:10.45
    3. 11.16, 34.78, 45.94
    4. 36.75, 40.69, 1:17.45
    5. 35.20, 23.13, 58.34
    6. 13.18, 53.61, 1:06.79

    I think the first step is getting better, apart from practicing solves, not much I can do there. But I feel like the second step is good with 0-4 misoriented edges, but weaker with 6+ misoriented edges. I think I should train with 6+ misoriented edge scrambles. Do you agree?
  3. pinser

    pinser Member

    Feb 12, 2014
    I just had to get this on the first solve of the session.

    11.26 D R2 U' L2 U' R2 B2 R2 B2 U2 F2 L U' L2 B2 F' L2 F2 L2 R'

    F2 L2 F D’ L2 D’
    U R2 U2 R’ L2 U2 L2 U’ R’ U L
    U R U2 R U R2 UR’ U2 R U R’ U
    28 HTM
    CubingGenius likes this.
  4. CubingGenius

    CubingGenius Member

    Jul 3, 2016
    I also got a LL skip on the first solve of my session yesterday as well that also came to 28 HTM.


    L2 B2 F2 R2 U L2 U L2 U' L2 F' L B2 U R F2 U R2 D' F'

    y' R d L R' F L R D'
    R2 U2 R U R
    U' L' U L U' L' U2 L' U L
    U L U L'

    pinser likes this.
  5. mDiPalma

    mDiPalma Member

    Jul 12, 2011
    Because some people erroneously believe that phasing takes more moves than TSLE, and the forum search function is too useless to find any information to prove them wrong...

    On a flight without a physical cube, I mentally went through all the possible last-slot F2L cases (<RU>) and came up with these statistics for creating+inserting a pair and phasing the LL edges:

    To reduce the F2L state to either a pair in the U-layer (any AUF) or an R-U-R' type insert (just that single AUF), 4.667 moves are required.

    (As a side note, to reduce the F2L state to a pair in the U-layer (any AUF), 5.573 moves are required.)

    Of these, 20/75 are the R-U-R' type, which takes 5.667 moves to insert while phasing, using basic intuition of the 3 unique cases.

    52/75 are pair-types that have edges at UR or UB. These all require a 1 move AUF before insertion while phasing.

    1/75 has the edge at UL which requires .667 moves to AUF.

    2/75 have the edge at UF which requires .333 moves to AUF (one of these is literally taking a LS-skipped pair out of the slot).

    Of the pair types, 4.333 moves are required to insert the pair while phasing, using basic intuition of the 3 unique cases.

    Combining those statistics and frequencies, we see that 10.067 moves <RU> are required to solve *any* LS case while phasing the LL edges.

    And if you aren't dumb about how you deal with a LS-skip, I believe this number drops to 10.004 htm <RU>.

    *although i believe i'm pretty (hopefully, by now, perfectly) efficient with <RU>, I may have missed something shorter, so these are upper bounds.


    Now, according to Phillip Espinoza, TSLE requires 10.37 htm (I think this is <RU>; if not, the <RU> movecount would exceed 10.37). Add .75 moves for AUF and you have 11.12 htm <RU> for TSLE from any initial F2L state.


    Therefore, creating and inserting the final F2L pair while phasing the LL edges is more than 1 move <RU> shorter than TSLE.
  6. AlphaSheep

    AlphaSheep Member

    Nov 11, 2014
    Gauteng, South Africa
    I believe Philip's estimation already includes AUF.

    I generated my own algs with an optimal number of (R U* R' U*) triggers and got an average move count of 10.65 including AUF. You can check my math if you like: (0.75 + 3*3.75 + 24*7.75 + 73*11.75 + 4*15.75)/105. If you generate pure <RU> you can get a bit shorter for some cases (eg the four 15 move cases are all 11 moves optimal in <RU>), but for the vast majority, the trigger combos are already optimal in <RU>, so the average move count won't be much lower.

    Your point still stands though. Phasing in 2-gen is still a bit shorter than 2-gen TSLE.
  7. pinser

    pinser Member

    Feb 12, 2014
    Is ZZLL merely a stepping stone to full ZBLL or is it fast enough to use by itself?
  8. CubingGenius

    CubingGenius Member

    Jul 3, 2016
    Simon Kalhofer used it to get the first official sub 10 average with ZZ in the world I believe.

    So it would be fast enough to use on its own. It's definitely superior to OCLL/PLL and COLL/EPLL.

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