Most optimal way to find and handle Fridrich F2L pairs (Intuitive)

Discussion in 'General Speedcubing Discussion' started by xXdaveXsuperstarXx, Jun 7, 2009.

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  1. Kirjava

    Kirjava Colourful

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    I hate it when a thread drifts like this.
     
  2. RyanReese09

    RyanReese09 Premium Member

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    <3
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    Except when
    [​IMG]
     
  3. qqwref

    qqwref Member

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    No, I'm familiar with that fallacy. Wikipedia itself says "[t]he fallacy only arises when it is claimed or implied that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism" and I am NOT saying that a fast person's advice is infallible. What I'm saying is that a slow person's advice about solve optimization is worse (in the sense of less likely to be correct/useful), because most people who really understand it would be able to apply that knowledge to their own solves.

    They're not the same group of people, for sure, because being a good coach requires teaching/coaching skills. That probably wasn't the best analogy. What I'm saying is that, if someone is slow at solving, it usually means that they don't have the personal experience to understand what is involved in being really good at it, and so they're probably going to be wrong about the best way to lookahead/fingertrick/inspect.
     
  4. FatBoyXPC

    FatBoyXPC Member

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    I agree with you, qq. I think I didn't quite word it the way I meant to, because I didn't want it to seem like I was being nitpicky about something.

    I see people upload a video of an average and ask for tips and tricks to get faster, and I feel like even though I might be slower than them, I can easily help them with some things. Well, I guess that's not true. I guess ideally, if people were to ask for tips/tricks the "right" way, then I shouldn't be able to help them out at all. I can't count how many times I see people have pauses, fumble w/algs, etc. I think that if people were to research a bit more before posting those videos, those videos would be posted less.

    I also often feel like people put too much weight in the "pro cubers." You have some people who know an incredible amount of cube theory, methods, algorithms, anything that helps cubes really, and some of those people aren't "that fast." To clarify, I mean somebody like Chris Hardwick, who doesn't have an official sub10 single, much less average. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not knockin' the guy, he's an awesome guy, and knows a lot (and is decently faster than me, even). The main reason he has so much credibly here is the fact he knows so much and been around for a long time. Sure he's great a blind, but blind and speedsolve require two different practices as well. Another great way to look at this is Mike Hughey. Great at blind, but hasn't quite got sub20 yet (officially, anyhow).

    I guess my point is: I'd gladly at least try out any cuber's advice (if I haven't yet tried the same thing). Just because you aren't amazing at something doesn't mean that you don't understand how it works. While I agree that education and experience are different (and often present different mindsets), that doesn't mean that a less experienced but educated individual is not credible.
     
  5. maggot

    maggot Member

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    on topic:

    i average around chris.

    i turn really slowly during f2l. what i try to do during f2l is look for either corners or edges. but what i will say, it is typically a corner.

    i am partial color neutral. sometimes during a long session where i am constantly going between 4 cross colors, it is hard to distinguish what is a good edge and what is a bad edge. it is incredibly easy to notice the cross color on the corner. this is the hardest part of being color neutral. people say the f2l is harder, but the reason why it is harder is because you arent typically following any edge, unless it is preceded by a corner. over time, i have become much more comfortable with making mental blocks when i switch cross colors.

    im having a really hard time trying to put into english, but to me 4 colors is just as hard as 2 colors. but 6 colors is awful! hahah

    so, corner bias imho is the best way to be fast, because if you cannot distinguish where you are going with the solve quickly, you will have to pause in your f2l. it is easy to spot the cross color. it is harder to distinguish which pieces do not have the cross color or opposite color. more seasoned cubers will have slight edge bias, but i myself personally see good edges, but it means nothing until i see the pair. the best thing to do is to see the good edge and try to keep track of wether it is in an empty slot or in the top. that way if you do end up spotting the corner, you will know you have a pair.
     
  6. Um, when the person giving advice is around 30 seconds...no one will listen. The faster you are the more credible your cubing statements will be. That's a simple fact of life, there's no getting around it. Would you take advice from someone who is at 80 seconds on how to get faster at F2L? Well your answer would probably be yes just to spite me, but that's hardly the point.
     
  7. cmhardw

    cmhardw Premium Member

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    In regards to the comments about me, I always feel that my advice should be taken with a grain of salt. As far as 3x3x3 speedcubing goes, my average average is right at about 15.5 seconds. If you are looking for advice that will get you to 15.5 seconds on average, but possibly no faster, then taking my advice could be useful to you. If you're looking to be faster than that, my advice may create in you bad habits that do not permit you to improve much past 15.5 seconds.

    Yes I maybe have been around a long time, but this could also mean that I have bad habits from the first generation and other second generation cubers that I am propagating, when in fact a completely different approach is much better for not only improving to 15.5 seconds but much further beyond that.
     
  8. maggot

    maggot Member

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    i think no matter how slow you are, the conversation is interesting enough. sometimes interesting things happen when you conversate. sometimes faster cubers are so stuck on what is successful for them. everyone has their own unique cubing style. even if you are slow, if you are intellegent you can sometimes give a fresh look on something that helps the community progress in some fashion. and along with this, sometimes just bouncing ideas around are the ways that new things are created.

    i think this thread is not about giving advice, they are just bouncing ideas around for what works for them. its up to you to judge wether you take their statement with a grain of salt. if it is their 3x3 avg, then so be it. dont read any of stachu's posts, because hes just a noob then.
     
  9. RyanReese09

    RyanReese09 Premium Member

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    Statue averages 16. That's not all that bad.
     
  10. What method =/
     
  11. a small kitten

    a small kitten Member

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    Who does the world revolve around again?
     
  12. hatter

    hatter Member

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    I think this is (hopefully) relevant..

    Everyone always says "practice practice practice". I cannot seem to break the 20 second barrier (I've been here for about.. a year? Though, granted, I have a laundry list of things more important than cubing). I want/need to get better at F2L, mostly finding pairs as I think I can execute the insertion rather quickly.


    How do you guys actually PRACTICE finding them? I feel like just repetitively doing f2l is somewhat helpful but it has no benefit over just repetitively solving the entire cube.
     
  13. Fridrich he is 16 i know. however if stachu breaks sub 20 with L2L4 then Ryan has to learn it, that is what he promised IIRC.
     
  14. qqwref

    qqwref Member

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    You seem to assume I draw the line at people who are very fast, but that's not true. Basically, I think everyone can get down under 20 seconds; if you are young (under 30 or so, let's say) you should be able to get down near the 15 second mark on average. This is with full Fridrich (or the equivalent) and some lookahead and fingertrick ability. Someone who's gotten down to that level probably understands optimization and lookahead tricks; someone who's still over 20 seconds probably doesn't, because they're still at the point where they have a lot of pauses in their solves. You definitely don't have to be down near Faz speed to have a full understanding of what it takes to be fast; in fact, I'd say that the biggest difference between someone with a global average of 13-14 seconds and someone with a global average of 8-9 seconds is turnspeed.

    As for Mike Hughey - no offense to him, but I very much doubt he's an expert at speedsolving. However, he is definitely an expert at blindfold solving, and from his times/accomplishments I'd expect a lot of knowledge in that area. In the same vein as the speedsolving stuff, I generally wouldn't take BLD optimization advice from someone whose best time is in the 3-4 minute range or higher.
     
  15. deadalnix

    deadalnix Member

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    Try to make a pair, but do not insert it. Then look your cube to find the next pair. Close your eyes, insert the pair and prepare the next one. And continue.

    However, as I'm not that fast, so this advice is complete crap. But knowing that kanneti does the same will change this crappy crap into golden crap. Maggically. I'm not sure excatly why yet, ask EricReese for more details about that particular point, he seems to know a lot about crap.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  16. ilikecubing

    ilikecubing Member

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    Completely agree with that
     
  17. a small kitten

    a small kitten Member

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    Chill. You are seriously overreacting. I'm pretty sure any sort of advice will be considered but advice coming from people with more reputation, experience or good competition results will most likely be considered first. After all, people get a lot of information thrown at them here. I don't blame them for being selective about who to listen to first. It takes time and motivation to work in a new technique. Being supported by somebody with experience and results is slightly more encouraging.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  18. Escher

    Escher Babby

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    I really don't see what's wrong with stating that faster people are more likely to have good advice...
     
  19. cmhardw

    cmhardw Premium Member

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    I think the issue is not whether this statement is correct or not. I think most people would agree that this is true.

    I think the issue is that people who feel they have something to contribute are afraid of being ignored if they are not "fast" or "fast enough". As an example, Richard Patterson has been my de facto cubing coach for years. He is pretty fast, but is not at faz speed or anything. Just because he is slower than faz doesn't mean that he can't still give excellent advice on how to improve (in speedcubing, fewest moves, blindfold, etc.)

    Your first statement still allows for this by the way. It is more likely that someone who is faster will give better advice, but this means that slower people can also give good advice, and also fast people can still give bad advice (bad advice for some).

    I hope that makes sense to others, as it does to me in my own crazy mind ;)
     
  20. ASH

    ASH Member

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    "most optimal" lol
     
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