[Help Thread] F2L Discussion and Help

Discussion in 'Cubing Help & Questions' started by doubleyou, Apr 19, 2007.

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  1. Arkwell

    Arkwell Member

    299
    4
    Jan 23, 2011
    Reducing F2L Move count.

    Working on 'intuitive' F2L for a little while. Went to the F2L 'Database' to check out algs for fingertricking (helps me to have an alg when working on 'Lookahead'. Checked the 'Reconstructions' page and saw some of Feliks reconstructions and the one that killed me is his former WR 6:18 F2L1=U R U R' L U L', F2L2=R L' U L R', F2L3=R l U' R' U l', F2L4=y U' R U R'(this one in SS Database). Are you kidding me? This is a ridiculously low F2L move count and I wondered is this 'Feliks being Feliks' and he's that good at intuitive, Cube Explorer or is there some kind of alg study going on. Seems like his F2L move count is getting smaller except when he screws up then he corrects as fast as most solve. What would you recommend to reduce F2L move count and can ACube or CX help lowering F2L movecount? Feliks does say he works on algs but he's not specific.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2012
  2. ThomasJE

    ThomasJE Premium Member

    1,792
    2
    Dec 31, 2011
    England
    YouTube:
    ThomasJECubing
    I would say just practice. One thing I would suggest - go through the F2L cases, and compare your intuitive move count to the algorithic move count (probably on the Speedsolving.com wiki - [WIKI]F2L[/WIKI] link). If your count is 2-3 moves more than the algorithms, then consider learning the alg for that case if it is not an intuitive case (R U R' U' R U R' U' R U R' is a good example).
     
  3. evogler

    evogler Member

    95
    0
    Mar 30, 2011
    WCA:
    2012VOGL01
    In his 3x3 examples video he talks about choosing which pair to do next based on how it will influence the remaining pairs. To be honest, I haven't worked through it yet to understand exactly, specifically what each case he mentions looks like.
     
  4. applemobile

    applemobile Member

    858
    2
    Jan 8, 2012
    exeter uk
    IMO you shouldn't learn the alg, you should learn what the alg does, I find that if I just reel of an f2l alg from memory I don know where or what the pieces are doing I just know that the two pieces will end up in the slot. This messes up my look ahead, I prefer to look at the Algs and take note of how, and more Importantly why they are done that way.
     
  5. teller

    teller REAL Fingertricks!

    1,035
    4
    Dec 15, 2008
    West Virginia
    WCA:
    2010COAT01
    YouTube:
    TellerWest
    I don't know about one particular solve, but multi-slotting is the answer. Not so much the wacky multi-slotting that "God" comes up with sometimes, but just good pair selection and making an informed choice about how to insert a pair such that it minimizes the complexity of the next. So how to reach these decisions quickly?

    The brain is a powerful thing...after tens of thousands of repetitions it can subconsciously pick up on the patterns of success and failure and steer you toward the right decisions if you stop being logical and let it run on pure intuition+experience. More info
     
  6. evogler

    evogler Member

    95
    0
    Mar 30, 2011
    WCA:
    2012VOGL01
    Has anyone done a study on the average f2l move count of various cubers?
     
  7. Kirjava

    Kirjava Colourful

    6,122
    24
    Mar 26, 2006
    WCA:
    2006BARL01
    YouTube:
    snkenjoi
    Untimed solves of discovery! The most beautiful thing cubing can give you.
     
  8. Sad 4u

    Sad 4u Member

    10
    0
    Jun 9, 2012
    Long island, NY
    As i was reading this i was like "wtf when did i write this???" cuz i have the exact same problem. I average like 38-40 and my f2l is like a good 20 seconds. Ive nearly given up on fridrich f2l and have been going back to beginners lbl f2l. I know all the cases and intuitively can do the fridrich f2l, but i simply cant do it fast. :(
     
  9. A Leman

    A Leman Member

    632
    3
    Jan 22, 2012
    New Jersey
    Some tips I think can help

    1. Study the example solves of faster cubers. Learning intuitively and by example can help ALOT!

    2. Get better at inspection. Part of the challenge of f2l is look ahead but if you are prepared for the first 2 f2l pairs before the cross, you times will get cut down and you will have a much more confident f2l.

    3. Look ahead (find your next pair while executing your first pair) If you already found pairs during the inspection time, it gives you much more time to find the last pairs.

    4. Don’t worry about cube rotations that much if they are helping your solves (you can tell). Actually practice your rotations so you don't lose time regriping.

    5. Learn the benefits of wide turns for making the next pair rotationless
     
  10. drogg

    drogg Member

    37
    0
    Apr 24, 2012
    Benmeister. I think I can help you out here. I am by no means a fast cuber (average around 26 have been cubing for last 5 months). However, around two months ago my average was 42s and my F2L times mirrored yours.

    Reading through your post your numbers don't seem to add up. Your f2l average is 24s. You say you only waste at worst case scenario 0.5s finding a pair. So 0.5x4 (for all pairs) = 2secs. Therefore it takes you 22/4 = 5.5secs on average to insert each pair!

    I would suggest in reality the majority of your time is wasted finding your pairs and you in fact have close to zero lookahead (I'm not trying to be harsh). I know I certainly did when I was averaging 42s (and it is still poor at my current average of 26s). If you want to prove if this is true you can solve your cross then individually time inserting each pair, having studied each case before starting the timer, and see what your f2l totals then when it is limited only by turning speed and not lookahead. This gives you your theoretical fastest time at your current turning speed.

    Now in terms of helping you. Everyone bangs on about lookahead and how important it is. I am by no means disputing this!!!! But when I was averaging 42s I wasn't confident enough at inserting my pairs at anywhere near a normal speed without looking at them to start concentrating on the next pair, but it soon came with practice. You say you've only been cubing for 1 month so clearly you need lots of practice to improve your F2L (I would stress this heavily at your stage) and as someone else has already stated slow solves will help you out too as they start to allow you to track the next pair better as you don't have to worry so much about the current insertion as it's so slow. I also found it much easier to start inserting with my non dominant hand when solving slowly, as well as inserting into back slots. But don't try to do too much just focus on one thing and keep practicing it to see improvements in your times!

    If I am completely wrong and you do in fact only spend 0.5s finding each pair then I apologise for my remark about your lookahead and I suggest you need to look at some much more efficient ways of inserting pairs. There are lots of videos out there but just looking at the wiki and experimenting with your cube helps.

    I hope this helps to some degree. Keep at it you will be sub-30 in no time!
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  11. awesomecuber150

    awesomecuber150 Member

    174
    0
    Jun 10, 2012
    USA
    WCA:
    2012ROCK02
    YouTube:
    Awesomevideos150
    Well for me I had the same problem. The thing that made me slow was I took to many moves. Try counting how many moves it takes you to F2L. I take about 30 to 40 moves and I average about 12 sec. for my f2l. But really all I can say is take it slow work out the cases with as least moves possible. And don't turn as fast as you can just really focus on lookahead. Try to solve one F2L slot with closing you eyes to. If you can do that then you don't have to look at your pieces but other pieces.
     
  12. nuclearbigdaddy

    nuclearbigdaddy Member

    90
    0
    May 31, 2012
    Canton, Georgia
    YouTube:
    NuclearCuber
    Other tips for F2L look ahead?

    Hello Everybody...Does any one know some very good tips for f2l look ahead. I was looking for more unique advice. Thanks!!:tu
     
  13. Prodigy360

    Prodigy360 Member

    1
    0
    Aug 5, 2012
    Austin, TX
    Learning F2L intuitively?

    Hi,
    I am not a speedcuber quite yet but I do average around 30 seconds, my best being about 21 (which I have acheived a few times, one time actually using the beginner's method with shortcuts). I have learned 2-look OLL (I will learn 1-look OLL later) and know all but four of the PLL algorithms as of tonight. I haven't looked into F2L much yet at this point, as I figured that I would just learn it by the algorithms. However, I have recently done some research and learned that it is apparently much more beneficial to learn F2L intuitively, and I understand why. I have just watched badmephisto's F2L guides and have started to practice doing F2L intuitively tonight. Of course, my times are immensely increased (I'm not even bothering to time myself at this point), and I know that eventually they will decrease after much practice.

    What I want to know is how long it will take before my times get better. I am a pretty fast learner, as I started cubing just last summer and had my times down to a minute within the first couple of weeks using a storebought Rubik's cube. I hope to get my times below my last timed averages in the next three weeks, before the end of the summer, although I know it may be tough. I plan, and probably will, practice at least two or three hours a day. I don't know how to pair peices both already in the top layer or separated between the top and bottom layers, but I have begun to understand it intuitively.

    I would appreciate any help, especially tips on how to learn F2L faster and more efficiently. What I really need is a good estimate on how long it would take me to get my times back down with my learning rate and practice time. Thanks.
     
  14. Cubic

    Cubic Member

    58
    0
    Aug 3, 2012
    London, England
    There are loads of tutorials available to help you. As a beginner at learning a speedcubing method myself, I have found the tutorials from Badmephisto and Rido particularly useful.

    Have a look at:
    http://www.badmephisto.com/ and
    http://rishidoshi.blogspot.co.uk/

    Of course, there are plenty of other resources available, and both these sites link to some very easy to understand material and some great printable guides.

    Good luck.

    Cubic
     
  15. KobaltKour

    KobaltKour Member

    38
    0
    May 18, 2012
    Melbourne, Australia
    YouTube:
    KobaltKour
    I learned it by watching a video which pretty much broke it down to 4 cases and teaching you what to do in each case. It's not that hard. You can learn it in a day or two. It's one of the F2L videos on youtube.
     
  16. MarcelP

    MarcelP Member

    I would not really worry about that. Since you already have great times for a beginner. I am guessing you will be one of the fast guys soon.
     
  17. Kattenvriendin

    Kattenvriendin Member

    1,748
    1
    Jun 23, 2012
    The Netherlands
    You're at 30secs already, don't worry! :D
     
  18. sneaklyfox

    sneaklyfox Member

    2,846
    7
    Apr 10, 2012
    Ottawa, Canada
    WCA:
    2013HUNG01
    YouTube:
    sneaklyfox
    You ARE a speedcuber. You solve cubes as fast as you can and make it a goal to get faster and faster so that is a speedcuber. A non-speedcuber who does cubes is someone who just knows how to solve the cube and they are happy enough for that fact.
     

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