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Proposal: Video Evidence Should NOT be used to overturn official records

Should video be used to overturn official records?


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DeeDubb

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Video evidence was recently used to overturn a NR in Square 1 by Kunaal Parekh when he accidently nudged one side during the inspection. This was missed by the judges as well as most people viewing the video. A few sharp eyes caught the error and WCA officials overturned the NR by changing it to a DNF.

It's been a few weeks, and I haven't seen anything official from the WCA stating their policy on using video.

To me, it is sad to see personal video used as official evidence to overturn records. This policy definitely gives an advantage to those who do not allow their solves to be filmed (sure there might be some cases where video can help, but generally it can only hurt by catching some minor infraction that the judge misses). If the idea is to spread cubing to a global audience, YouTube is a great way to achieve that. Especially YouTube videos of WCA events, however, this policy hurts people who take video of their official solves, and may discourage people from taping their solves or putting them on the internet.

Personally, I think that unless the WCA forces organizers to have video of EVERY solve at a given event, then video should not be used to overturn judge's decisions in either direction.

I understand the counterargument is that the emphasis is getting the call right, but there's no way to get the call right on people who aren't being filmed other than the judge watching with his own eyes in real time. Giving people instant replay to watch over and over and catch a minor infraction is not fair considering how many minor infractions must have been missed for those who are solving without video.

So, basically, the argument boils down to: is it more important to treat every cuber as fairly as possible or to get the call right as often as possible?
 

Tim Major

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If it can't be used to overturn "lucky" calls, it can't be used to overturn completely wrong calls.

IE: If I get a 9.50 and it's put in the database as 19.50. I think it's fine how it is currently.
 

Petro Leum

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Personally, I think that unless the WCA forces organizers to have video of EVERY solve at a given event, then video should not be used to overturn judge's decisions in either direction.

this. personally, while i previously found having a recording of your official solves cool to upload and "show off" i am now not even gonna think about recording my official solves. i cba to have a debate over some official result by me (and at least im not close to getting some nr/cr/wr :p)

so if i want reconstructions of my solves or just wanna check my turning, id record my times at home. it's a shame though.
 

DeeDubb

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If it can't be used to overturn "lucky" calls, it can't be used to overturn completely wrong calls.

IE: If I get a 9.50 and it's put in the database as 19.50. I think it's fine how it is currently.

But how is it currently? Is there an official policy on the matter?

Also, if your time is wrong due to a data entry error, wouldn't your official card be enough to overturn that?
 

Erik

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The goal must always be to get correct decisions, correct times in the database and of course correct records. Any sound evidence that helps finding mistakes the (maybe inexperienced) judges or scoretakers make is welcome in this. Especially video evidence.

Yes, fast people do get filmed more often than slower people. But then again, not many people would be upset if there was a mistake in a 1 minute solve and a lot of people would be upset when the stakes are high and it is about NR/CR/WRs.
 

Ollie

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Especially YouTube videos of WCA events, however, this policy hurts people who take video of their official solves, and may discourage people from taping their solves or putting them on the internet.

It also might encourage people to be more careful, especially when they have potential to get NR/CR/WRs. In Kunaal's unfortunate case, whether he nudged the side accidentally or not, he broke a regulation in getting his NR. This is unfair on someone who got the previous NR without any infractions.

Personally, I think that unless the WCA forces organizers to have video of EVERY solve at a given event, then video should not be used to overturn judge's decisions in either direction.

This is virtually impossible. Evidence for a thing doesn't become less valuable because we don't have evidence of every other solve to compare it to, nor does it become less valuable if it's 'unfair' on that person who's solve got filmed. Evidence is evidence.

I understand the counterargument is that the emphasis is getting the call right, but there's no way to get the call right on people who aren't being filmed other than the judge watching with his own eyes in real time. Giving people instant replay to watch over and over and catch a minor infraction is not fair considering how many minor infractions must have been missed for those who are solving without video.

We need to catch as many infractions as we possibly can to make it fair for everyone. If we find evidence of someone breaking a regulation, deliberately or not, we can't let them off because we may or may not have missed previous breaches in the regulations. That's absurd. It's like letting Luis Suarez off because someone, somewhere, may have bitten another player without it being caught on film.
 

RicardoRix

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You gotta feel the pain. Sounds a bit harsh the way you put it.
But if it's a bad decision then it's a bad decision, you should direct your energy to that point, don't take it out on the video.
 

DeeDubb

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It's like letting Luis Suarez off because someone, somewhere, may have bitten another player without it being caught on film.

I don't think that analogy is fair. That's a malicious, criminal thing. An infraction during a solve is more equatable to an offsides. Let's say an offsides is missed, and leads to a winning goal, then days later, the goal is overturned when a fan's video of the match shows that the scorer was actually offsides. That is pretty much identical, and that would never happen.

EDIT to add to that:

Pro sports has official regulations on when and how replays can be used to overturn calls. They would never ask someone in the audience for their cell phone video of the event, and then use that to determine the outcome of the game. There's plenty of missed calls that changed the outcome of championships. Video evidence shows that one team clearly should be the champion, but instead the other team is crowned, however the call was missed, and that's fair because judge's error is part of any sport.
 
Last edited:

szalejot

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I think videos should not be considered as evidence unless to points are taken into consideration:
1. Every solve should be filmed.
2. There should be official set of rules that define how videos should be recorded.
Until this happens, in my opinion, video should not be considered as evidence in speedcubing.
 

Laura O

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To me, it is sad to see personal video used as official evidence to overturn records. This policy definitely gives an advantage to those who do not allow their solves to be filmed (sure there might be some cases where video can help, but generally it can only hurt by catching some minor infraction that the judge misses). If the idea is to spread cubing to a global audience, YouTube is a great way to achieve that. Especially YouTube videos of WCA events, however, this policy hurts people who take video of their official solves, and may discourage people from taping their solves or putting them on the internet.

Sorry, but this is a strange approach.
You actually think something is unfair since it reveals unfair actions?
I don't want to discuss Kunaal's solve again (this has been done enough in the relevant thread), but we shouldn't generalize this.

Our goal should be that the rules are observed by everyone in every single solve and that's actually the spirit of the WCA ("behave sportsmanlike"). Video evidence does help to follow this.
And just think of the following situation: someone does a fabulous 4/5BLD record, in the video you can see that he did a speedsolving solution, everyone knows that he cheated but there are no consequences because the regulations prohibit video evidence?
 

Ollie

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I don't think that analogy is fair. That's a malicious, criminal thing. An infraction during a solve is more equatable to an offsides. Let's say an offsides is missed, and leads to a winning goal, then days later, the goal is overturned when a fan's video of the match shows that the scorer was actually offsides. That is pretty much identical, and that would never happen.

EDIT to add to that:

Pro sports has official regulations on when and how replays can be used to overturn calls. They would never ask someone in the audience for their cell phone video of the event, and then use that to determine the outcome of the game. There's plenty of missed calls that changed the outcome of championships. Video evidence shows that one team clearly should be the champion, but instead the other team is crowned, however the call was missed, and that's fair because judge's error is part of any sport.

The analogy was just to demonstrate that you can't penalize people on the basis that breaches of regulations can also occur off camera, which you claimed in the OP. There are also a number of pro-sports where competitors have been disqualified (mostly athletics.)

Pro sports has official regulations on when and how replays can be used to overturn calls. They would never ask someone in the audience for their cell phone video of the event, and then use that to determine the outcome of the game. There's plenty of missed calls that changed the outcome of championships. Video evidence shows that one team clearly should be the champion, but instead the other team is crowned, however the call was missed, and that's fair because judge's error is part of any sport.

By that logic, Matyas Kuti deserves to have all his blind records back, which I'm sure you don't agree with. He was found to have been cheating in a number of events from personal footage. (edit, ninja'd by ^)

The only difference in Kunaal's case is that it is likely that the nudge of one side was accidental. You can't create a set of criteria for 'accidents' and a set of critera for malicious cheaters. Breaches in regulations have to be treated the same otherwise they become easy to manipulate.
 

kinch2002

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It is clear that different analogies can support different points of view. However, most of these fail to recognise that speedsolving is a record-setting timed 'sport'. Football is not. So why not look to a sport that reflects that - Athletics? Video evidence is an accepted form of evidence in that sport.

Talking about using fans videos in sports is pointless, because we know that all those sports are professionally filmed anyway. But actually, in the almost-impossible situation that a fan had a video of Usain Bolt starting before the gun goes off, but none of the technology picked it up, I think you'd find he gets disqualified.

Saying that people who don't get filmed are at an unfair advantage is saying that you'd rather everyone was allowed to disobey the rules rather than some people being allowed to. Then we may as well not have rules.

I don't even want to think how the WDC would operate without being allowed to use video evidence.
 

DeeDubb

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The analogy was just to demonstrate that you can't penalize people on the basis that breaches of regulations can also occur off camera, which you claimed in the OP. There are also a number of pro-sports where competitors have been disqualified (mostly athletics.)

But my analogy was still closer. Generally, if it isn't caught during the game, the outcome will not be changed.

By that logic, Matyas Kuti deserves to have all his blind records back, which I'm sure you don't agree with. He was found to have been cheating in a number of events from personal footage. (edit, ninja'd by ^)

The only difference in Kunaal's case is that it is likely that the nudge of one side was accidental. You can't create a set of criteria for 'accidents' and a set of critera for malicious cheaters. Breaches in regulations have to be treated the same otherwise they become easy to manipulate.

This is a tough call. There's some gray area here that could still be open for discussion, but punishing the Kunaal's to catch the Matyas's doesn't seem right to me. I think for anyone undeserving to break a WR would require a pretty obvious level of cheating that is far different from moving a Square 1 piece 30 degrees during inspection.

It is clear that different analogies can support different points of view. However, most of these fail to recognise that speedsolving is a record-setting timed 'sport'. Football is not. So why not look to a sport that reflects that - Athletics? Video evidence is an accepted form of evidence in that sport.

Talking about using fans videos in sports is pointless, because we know that all those sports are professionally filmed anyway. But actually, in the almost-impossible situation that a fan had a video of Usain Bolt starting before the gun goes off, but none of the technology picked it up, I think you'd find he gets disqualified.

I would argue that he would not be disqualified, because organized athletics generally has rules on when/how video evidence can be used.

Saying that people who don't get filmed are at an unfair advantage is saying that you'd rather everyone was allowed to disobey the rules rather than some people being allowed to. Then we may as well not have rules.

This is an absolutely silly conclusion to draw. You still have judges with their eyes looking to spot infractions. Not allowing video does not negate rules whatsoever, especially since none of the rules address using video.

In order to have an official record, you have to compete at an official event with an officially appointed judge. This is the criteria set forth by the WCA. To add an additional element of passing a video inspection of the solve for some competitors, but not others is simply unfair.

How about this for a proposal, since these issues will really only come up when someone is pushing for a record:

Anyone who wants to set a NR/CR/WR must do so at an official competition AND have a reasonable quality video taken of their inspection solve.

I would definitely be fine with this, because at least the elite level of competition would be held to the same standards.

This would not be too crazy to ask because anyone in the running for a record pretty much knows that they are capable of it, and would definitely have the capability to have someone film their solves, especially at this point, where there aren't too many fluky records.
 

Dane man

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I think that video evidence can be used. Why? Yes, you do have a good point in saying that it's "unfair" that others aren't filmed and might get away with things like that, but sadly, life is simply unfair. So are other sports as you've said. The WCA has the responsibility to keep records as accurate as possible, and as clean of errors as possible. Now of course they're not going to catch every single one, because no one ever does in any other sport, but it seems right that once one infraction is known, then that attempt is invalidated.

I know that in most other sports, the video evidence can only be used during the game, and anything afterwards, it's too late, but this is because it'd be too much effort to reorganize and go back to replay that game (and perhaps other games if it's been long enough), so they just leave it as it is. But in cubing, it's pretty easy to go back and say, "oh, that single solve was done wrong. We can remove it and leave all the others though." In other sports, you can't simply "fix" one part in the middle of the game, because you'd have to redetermine the rest.

Sadly, life is unfair, and we'll just have to live with that, especially when it's us getting caught doing something wrong while others didn't.
 

David Zemdegs

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If a video shows that someone breaks the rules then so be it. If they have been so close to breaking a NR, CR or WR then with determination and practice they will certainly do it eventually. Disputes regarding non videod records will always be problematic. The only evidence in the these cases would be past recorded results. Hence we have often questioned a record that seems to "come from nowhere" so to speak.
 

Ollie

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This is a tough call. There's some gray area here that could still be open for discussion, but punishing the Kunaal's to catch the Matyas's doesn't seem right to me. I think for anyone undeserving to break a WR would require a pretty obvious level of cheating that is far different from moving a Square 1 piece 30 degrees during inspection.

You've ignored my point entirely. By not allowing the use of personal footage as evidence, then we have no grounds to disqualify Matyas Kuti for any of his blind world records which we now know were illegitimate. This wouldn't have been possible without considering personal footage. If this measure is to ensure equal fairness, then allowing these records to stand isn't fair on anyone.

Plus what if, in the future under your proposed rule change, someone else decided to make the same 30 degree turn to give themselves a better start, knowing the judge isn't paying attention? This isn't fair on anyone trying to get that NR legitimately, and supports Dan's "absolutely silly" conclusion. Why bother following any of the rules if my judge isn't paying 100% attention? Sometimes people might exploit this, but at least with video evidence we can catch those that do.
 

DeeDubb

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You've ignored my point entirely. By not allowing the use of personal footage as evidence, then we have no grounds to disqualify Matyas Kuti for any of his blind world records which we now know were illegitimate. This wouldn't have been possible without considering personal footage. If this measure is to ensure equal fairness, then allowing these records to stand isn't fair on anyone.

You're right. Without being allowed to use video OR even without video itself, there would be no grounds to disqualify him. The WCA would have just had to add the paper thing to the rules and move on, conceding that he had gotten away with it.

Plus what if, in the future under your proposed rule change, someone else decided to make the same 30 degree turn to give themselves a better start, knowing the judge isn't paying attention? This isn't fair on anyone trying to get that NR legitimately, and supports Dan's "absolutely silly" conclusion. Why bother following any of the rules if my judge isn't paying 100% attention?

That can still happen if they aren't being filmed. Isn't this an issue with making sure the WCA delegate is appointing competent judges rather than depending on a failsafe that only applies of someone happens to be filming the solve?
 

Ollie

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That can still happen if they aren't being filmed. Isn't this an issue with making sure the WCA delegate is appointing competent judges rather than depending on a failsafe that only applies of someone happens to be filming the solve?

The delegate doesn't 'appoint' judges. Judges are mostly volunteers and competitions rely on them. Some are more experienced than others, some require training but everyone is capable of making mistakes.

Why throw out a perfectly good method of detecting infractions, just because judges can mistakes and/or people can break regulations when no-one is filming them?
 
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