• Welcome to the Speedsolving.com, home of the web's largest puzzle community!
    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to join discussions and access our other features.

    Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community of 40,000+ people from around the world today!

    If you are already a member, simply login to hide this message and begin participating in the community!

Delegate/Community Voting

Lucas Garron

Administrator
Joined
Jul 6, 2007
Messages
3,718
Location
California
WCA
2006GARR01
YouTube
Visit Channel
Please note that this idea is on its very early stages. Please don't just voice your dislike for some aspect of this that may or may not happen. Constructive concerns and ideas are welcome, though.

I've spent a long time thinking about how to handle controversial changes.
Sometimes, it is important to make a decision against the preferences of competitors (the removal of POPs comes to mind as a classic example).
However, many decisions are ultimately a matter of making one choice over another. In this case, it would be wisest to lay out the important pros and cons of a choice, and listen to the resulting preferences of those who are experienced with the Regulations.
The WRC already tries to to that, but it's often hard to tell if the apparent community opinion is true, or just the result of some very vocal people. Very few people try to consider all the fact, and make a rational choice.

A fairly straightforward idea for improving this is to put controversial changes to a Delegate vote. If most Delegates prefer something, it's probably not a bad idea (and hopefully usually a good one).

It might be reasonable to extend this to experienced community members, but we have to think carefully about that would work.
We'd definitely welcome thoughts on how to involve people who are experienced enough with the Regulations that giving them a vote would be a positive contribution to the sport.

There is a GitHub issue tracking this topic.
Any progress is sure to be documented there, although I'll be monitoring this thread.
 

AmazingCuber

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Messages
608
Location
Berlin, Germany
YouTube
Visit Channel
I think that delegate voting would be a very nice idea, since they are some of the most experienced on WCA competitions and are some of the only people I trust to make purely rational decisions, looking at both pros and cons. I do think though that there should be established a official platform, outside some specific forums, for WCA members to discuss the changes. I am, however, against community voting as many people wouldn't consider all sides and couldn't make as rational decisions as the delegates. I also don't think that allowing some people to vote would be good, as it would create a sense of unfairness.
I think the perfect constellation would be delegate voting, as they are very competent in those subjects and have worked hard to do what they do. This should be put together with an international discussion forum which would reach all kinds of competitors (this could be put together with the idea of being allowed to log in on the WCA website) to get a general idea of what the community wants to help the delegates.
Thank you for putting so much time in the WCA, Lucas! :D
 

mycube

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
1,019
Location
Regensburg, Germany
WCA
2011FRES01
I like this basic idea.

But for me it would be necessary to be informed about any decisions the delegates should take before they vote. Because then the job of the delegates should be to inform their local community and have to vote in their way, after they had some time to give their opinion. So this would lead to an expansion of the delegates work to be representative for his national or continental community.
 

Erik

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
2,661
Location
Enschede, Netherlands, Netherlands
WCA
2005AKKE01
YouTube
Visit Channel
Nice to have a separate thread on this. Before I repeat myself my comments can be found here: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...or-all-puzzles&p=972037&viewfull=1#post972037
and here: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...or-all-puzzles&p=972270&viewfull=1#post972270

Basically I think voting is a good idea, but I am conviced not all delegates would be suited or better said some non-delegates would be more suited to vote. People like Arnaud van Galen would make great delegates, but aren't just because there are already enough delegates in the area. Picking the right people is the challenge. Might not be easy, but definitely the right way.
 

Methuselah96

Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
318
WCA
2012BIER01
We could follow the example of the American government and have two houses of legislature. One body could be the delegates and another body could be voted on by the community. Or we could just cut the delegates out of the equation. Both of those would require a lot of work, but it could be done. (You would then have to figure out community voting in order to appoint the one body of legislatures which could be hard.)
 

TheNextFeliks

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Messages
2,414
Location
KCKS
WCA
2013POPE01
YouTube
Visit Channel
We could follow the example of the American government and have two houses of legislature. One body could be the delegates and another body could be voted on by the community. Or we could just cut the delegates out of the equation. Both of those would require a lot of work, but it could be done. (You would then have to figure out community voting in order to appoint the one body of legislatures which could be hard.)

And see how well things get done here? :p

I think delegates for sure due to their knowledge. The community, I feel, especially for non-experienced cubers, often act on their opinion rather than what is better for the community. I see people saying all the time, "We should do/change/add this because I like/don't like this or it is fun." Those aren't really grounds for change. We should pass a law because I like it. You should pass one because it benefits people.
I always felt the WCA was more of a fair oligarchy than a democracy and it functions quite well.
 

mycube

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
1,019
Location
Regensburg, Germany
WCA
2011FRES01
If you want to have a fair place to poll the community, it should be at competitions, it would be biased if they just voted on the forums, since it does not represent people who don't go on the forums.

So how about people not going to competitions because there are no competitions close enough?
 

Methuselah96

Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
318
WCA
2012BIER01
So how about people not going to competitions because there are no competitions close enough?

Then why should they get to vote if it doesn't affect them?

And see how well things get done here? :p

I think delegates for sure due to their knowledge. The community, I feel, especially for non-experienced cubers, often act on their opinion rather than what is better for the community. I see people saying all the time, "We should do/change/add this because I like/don't like this or it is fun." Those aren't really grounds for change. We should pass a law because I like it. You should pass one because it benefits people.
I always felt the WCA was more of a fair oligarchy than a democracy and it functions quite well.

I was just putting ideas out there. I like the way we have it now, personally, but it doesn't really matter that much to me.
 
Last edited:

Ranzha

Friendly, Neighbourhoodly
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
2,551
Location
Reno, Nevada, United States
WCA
2009HARN01
YouTube
Visit Channel
except for the ones that we're talking about that are controversial that we're voting on and won't change outside of competition anyway...

There are many regulations that could be applied at home that cubers simply don't observe, like proper attempt start procedure, using competition-legal scrambles, shielding themselves with a blind folder for BLD events, etc.
If prominent people in the WCA chose to talk about cutting inspection time to 10 seconds and it became a change in the Regs, wouldn't most solvers switch to inspection for 10s?
 

Erik

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
2,661
Location
Enschede, Netherlands, Netherlands
WCA
2005AKKE01
YouTube
Visit Channel
We could follow the example of the American government...
Sorry but I had to stop reading after this xD

Official rules are still followed outside of a competition (except for some like stickerless cubes)
I remember getting flamed here because I noticed some irregularities here:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...12-(7-84-avg5)&p=964150&viewfull=1#post964150

Just to be clear (trying to prevent some posts here): I don't think anyone thinks it would be a good idea to let ALL cubers who ever competed vote (posts by mycube and AlexMaass, but I could be wrong). That means my mother could vote as well xD (nothing against her obviously, but she has no idea about what is going on...)
 

AlexMaass

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Messages
1,546
Location
America, New York, Long Island
WCA
2011MAAS01
YouTube
Visit Channel
Sorry but I had to stop reading after this xD


I remember getting flamed here because I noticed some irregularities here:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...12-(7-84-avg5)&p=964150&viewfull=1#post964150

Just to be clear (trying to prevent some posts here): I don't think anyone thinks it would be a good idea to let ALL cubers who ever competed vote (posts by mycube and AlexMaass, but I could be wrong). That means my mother could vote as well xD (nothing against her obviously, but she has no idea about what is going on...)
Well what cubers should be allowed to vote then? People who have been to a certain amount of comps or something?
 

kinch2002

Premium Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
2,504
Location
Guildford! UK!
WCA
2009SHEP01
YouTube
Visit Channel
I think some sort of voting is a great idea. I also agree with trying to figure out a way of including various other community members, although that would indeed be difficult.

I haven't really thought through this, but it sprung to mind: If we really want other members of the community, how about allowing each country a number of votes (not the same for every country). Delegates would decide who else from their country should be on the voting team.

As for what the vote would mean, I see a few options:
1. The result only acts as guidance for the Board
2. A certain threshold must be met in order for it to go to the Board for a final decision.
3. A certain threshold being met would mean that it goes through automatically.

As an aside, I expressed my desire for delegate voting a few years ago, and was told by a board member (now ex-board member) that he didn't like the idea.
 

Goosly

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
804
Location
Belgium
WCA
2010VERE01
I haven't really thought through this, but it sprung to mind: If we really want other members of the community, how about allowing each country a number of votes (not the same for every country). Delegates would decide who else from their country should be on the voting team.

I was having similar thoughts. The hard part would probably be how to decide the number of voters every country gets. It could be based on the total amount of cubers from that country that have competed (for example that number divided by 50).
 
D

Deleted member 19792

Guest
I think some sort of voting is a great idea. I also agree with trying to figure out a way of including various other community members, although that would indeed be difficult.

I haven't really thought through this, but it sprung to mind: If we really want other members of the community, how about allowing each country a number of votes (not the same for every country). Delegates would decide who else from their country should be on the voting team.

As for what the vote would mean, I see a few options:
1. The result only acts as guidance for the Board
2. A certain threshold must be met in order for it to go to the Board for a final decision.
3. A certain threshold being met would mean that it goes through automatically.

As an aside, I expressed my desire for delegate voting a few years ago, and was told by a board member (now ex-board member) that he didn't like the idea.


How about delegate representation? Delegates from an area represent a vote from the community.
 

Lucas Garron

Administrator
Joined
Jul 6, 2007
Messages
3,718
Location
California
WCA
2006GARR01
YouTube
Visit Channel
I haven't really thought through this, but it sprung to mind: If we really want other members of the community, how about allowing each country a number of votes (not the same for every country). Delegates would decide who else from their country should be on the voting team.

If Delegates can decide, they can also bias things towards people with matching preferences. Getting a vote becomes politics, not cubing.

Did you see the suggestion from Kit in the first post's GitHub link? It's still the most reasonable one I've heard, given all the discussion in this thread.

Allow one vote for each competitor who:
  • out of all competitors in their region ranked by number of competitions attended, is in the top X% (e.g. region=continent, X=5)
  • has been to at least one competition in the past year
 
Top